HMRC _ Clarity at last on RGR and Special Circumstances

[Chris_Robb]

The last response HMRC actually confirms that arriving back after more than 3 years abroad - you can Claim RGR . This is the answer

"The special or exceptional circumstances provisions will still be in RGR rules in the post transition period. Under these provisions HMRC could consider if it was reasonable to provide a waiver from the three year, rule if there were exceptional circumstances in a particular case."

This was email round 10 with HMRC and this time they have answered. So it appears most of the RYA's scare story has just been to do with their total; misunderstanding of RGR and the bits of it we have used. So what if we now have to actually fill in the forms (enforcement) its five minutes work. Why the fixation on the 3 years when for ever we have used RGR Plus, the RGR Plus bit being Special Circumstances. So I think for most of us the worry is over. the year of Grace is a read Herring and the RYA efforts to get 3 years grace - is based on a total lack on understanding on what VAT is and how the Special Circumstances worked ! Bit sad really....
This is the link to the guidance on this under which RGR has always been used by returning yachts, only those returning on the deck of a ship have actually formally applied for this - Customs preferring to waive in all the rest.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/pay-less-import-duty-and-vat-when-re-importing-goods-to-the-uk-and-eu

What remain though, is HMRC's refusal to re think the situation of those who bought UK Vat Paid yachts second hand on the continent. It would appear that this group of yachtsmen - most likely the least affluent in the world of yachts, is being treated disgracefully - and is having NO support from the RYA or the BMF who have not even mentioned this as an issue! This is a fundamental disgrace on those 2 organisations.

 

[Ningaloo]

Although this does not affect me, I would not like to pin my hopes on the consequences of Brexit being interpreted as "exceptional circumstances" by HMRC, especially as the consequences have been clear for over four years.

And I'm not sure I understand your criticism in the final paragraph. Someone buys an item overseas then moves it to a different tax authority. Why would tax not become due? Again, any UK resident buying a boat in the EU within the last four years will have known the consequence of Brexit on the VAT status.

I am 100% opposed to Brexit, however I am very frustrated that so many people are only just (too late) beginning to realise its cost. Why did more people not consider that, after three and a half years of trying and failing to reach any acceptable deal with EU, that it might not be a sensible thing to continue with? I understand the gullible being taken in by the Boris bus, but the UK had an election just 12 months ago that gave an opportunity to turn this around. One party stood on the platform of overturning Brexit. Sadly many of those complaining now were either too ignorant or apathetic to take this opportunity.

 

[nortada]

The last response HMRC actually confirms that arriving back after more than 3 years abroad - you can Claim RGR . This is the answer

"The special or exceptional circumstances provisions will still be in RGR rules in the post transition period. Under these provisions HMRC could consider if it was reasonable to provide a waiver from the three year, rule if there were exceptional circumstances in a particular case."

This was email round 10 with HMRC and this time they have answered. So it appears most of the RYA's scare story has just been to do with their total; misunderstanding of RGR and the bits of it we have used. So what if we now have to actually fill in the forms (enforcement) its five minutes work. Why the fixation on the 3 years when for ever we have used RGR Plus, the RGR Plus bit being Special Circumstances. So I think for most of us the worry is over. the year of Grace is a read Herring and the RYA efforts to get 3 years grace - is based on a total lack on understanding on what VAT is and how the Special Circumstances worked ! Bit sad really....
This is the link to the guidance on this under which RGR has always been used by returning yachts, only those returning on the deck of a ship have actually formally applied for this - Customs preferring to waive in all the rest.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/pay-less-import-duty-and-vat-when-re-importing-goods-to-the-uk-and-eu

What remain though, is HMRC's refusal to re think the situation of those who bought UK Vat Paid yachts second hand on the continent. It would appear that this group of yachtsmen - most likely the least affluent in the world of yachts, is being treated disgracefully - and is having NO support from the RYA or the BMF who have not even mentioned this as an issue! This is a fundamental disgrace on those 2 organisations.

Well done Chris.

You have fought this one to a stand-still and won or rather confirmed what was always there.

Additionally, you have re-inforced my view of the RYA, who for their own ends, started this rabbit running. Giving many honest sailors sleepless nights. Not fit for purpose?

Economically, people who purchase a U.K. VAT Paid vessel are very small beer so it is a shame that HMRC will not reconsider their situation and include them in the RGR waiver.

 

[dunedin]

So now does this depend on what HMRC defines as “exceptional circumstances”? Need to be confident where they might place the hurdle in that respect.

 

[Graham376]

So now does this depend on what HMRC defines as “exceptional circumstances”? Need to be confident where they might place the hurdle in that respect.

Look at it another way, have you ever heard of anyone in the past being refused RGR when returning from a few years circumnavigation?

 

[Graham376]

And I'm not sure I understand your criticism in the final paragraph. Someone buys an item overseas then moves it to a different tax authority. Why would tax not become due? Again, any UK resident buying a boat in the EU within the last four years will have known the consequence of Brexit on the VAT status.

The point is, a boat already purchased in the UK or EU is tax paid in both as we're still in the common VAT area and Customs Union until 31/12. Quite reasonable to say if purchased next year we will be in different tax regimes but not as of now.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Although this does not affect me, I would not like to pin my hopes on the consequences of Brexit being interpreted as "exceptional circumstances" by HMRC, especially as the consequences have been clear for over four years.

And I'm not sure I understand your criticism in the final paragraph. Someone buys an item overseas then moves it to a different tax authority. Why would tax not become due? Again, any UK resident buying a boat in the EU within the last four years will have known the consequence of Brexit on the VAT status.

I am 100% opposed to Brexit, however I am very frustrated that so many people are only just (too late) beginning to realise its cost. Why did more people not consider that, after three and a half years of trying and failing to reach any acceptable deal with EU, that it might not be a sensible thing to continue with? I understand the gullible being taken in by the Boris bus, but the UK had an election just 12 months ago that gave an opportunity to turn this around. One party stood on the platform of overturning Brexit. Sadly many of those complaining now were either too ignorant or apathetic to take this opportunity.

Re someone who buys a UK VAT paid yacht second hand in the EU mainland.... this is the Customs Union Territory (CUT) (with which you appear to be in love!) and another UK resident/citizen buying it in the CUT (dont misspell that) in all belief that he can bring it back to the UK and totally legal - now because of a funny quirk HMCR has brought in, describing at being exported (or the word they have just started using - Transported ) means that the owner when it left the UK is different from the returning one.

I struggle to see how HMRC are not actually breaking the law on this.

But basically - it is really unfair that a yacht with VAT paid in the Uk is not allowed back -not like the Hallberg Rassy purchaser who collected and paid Swedish VAT (when he could have paid UK Vat) with who I have little sympathy and much criticism as to why he could not support his own country when he purchased the boat -I will not be raising that matter, but I will carry on my sigle handed campaign for 2nd hand returnees. The more complaints the better!

 

[Chris_Robb]

So now does this depend on what HMRC defines as “exceptional circumstances”? Need to be confident where they might place the hurdle in that respect.

I am having one more shot to get the advice pages changed to include "Yachts returning from a long voyage" - suitable vague for the discretionary function. But this is all we have ever had in the past and it suited us 100%.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/pay-less-import-duty-and-vat-when-re-importing-goods-to-the-uk-and-eu

edited - as I should not post brexit stuff here!

 

[steve yates]

I think this is the specific paragraph that applies?

Goods in an EU member state on 31 December 2020

From 1 January 2021 goods arriving in Great Britain (England, Scotland and Wales) from the EU will be subject to import duties and VAT, unless a relief applies.


To allow importers extra time to return goods to Great Britain from the EU, a special extension period has been agreed.


Goods you transported from the UK and which are in the EU on 31 December 2020 will be eligible for relief even if the normal 3-year time limit for re-importation has expired, if you re-import them into Great Britain on or before 31 December 2021. All other conditions to qualify for the relief must be met.


You will not have to give the actual date the goods were exported from the UK, you will only need to show that the goods were in the UK before 31 December 2020.


This guidance will be updated on 1 January 2021 with all the qualifying conditions for relief for goods returning to the UK from on or after 1 January 2021.

 

[nortada]

Notice 8: sailing your pleasure craft to and from the UK

Just had this sent to me but as I do not intend to return to UK waters in the near future, I have neither the enthusiasm or energy to wade all through this link but little doubt others will.

 

[Chris_Robb]

I think this is the specific paragraph that applies?

Goods in an EU member state on 31 December 2020

From 1 January 2021 goods arriving in Great Britain (England, Scotland and Wales) from the EU will be subject to import duties and VAT, unless a relief applies.


To allow importers extra time to return goods to Great Britain from the EU, a special extension period has been agreed.


Goods you transported from the UK and which are in the EU on 31 December 2020 will be eligible for relief even if the normal 3-year time limit for re-importation has expired, if you re-import them into Great Britain on or before 31 December 2021. All other conditions to qualify for the relief must be met.


You will not have to give the actual date the goods were exported from the UK, you will only need to show that the goods were in the UK before 31 December 2020.


This guidance will be updated on 1 January 2021 with all the qualifying conditions for relief for goods returning to the UK from on or after 1 January 2021.

Yes, you are correct, but it is really there to deal with the hundreds of thousand other Goods out there - but yes - it also applies to yachts.

But why bother with this, when the age old RGR rules with Special Circumstances and waiver which have been used for 30 years or more are still there - you will just have to fill in the forms now.

We have all been subject to the misinformation of the so called industry professional bodies, the BMF and the RYA. The BMF in a recent meeting said that they were not concerned that there would be any loss of Marina business etc..... That might be right - but there are other poorer people in yachting who dont use Marinas - which thanks to the uncaring attitude of one of the bodies consulted, there has been no help. The RYA just has not got a brain in its head - if they understood RGR, they would have asked the right questions - which the CA has - and it got the EXPECTED answer - nothing has changed.

Do expect headline from the RYA about how they saved the day ------ typical of a monopolistics bunch of brown nose gravy trainers.....

As for the Owners of second hand yachts (UK VAT Paid) purchased in Europe in the last 30 years! to deprive them of their VAT status is nothing short of Scandalous.

The letter back to HMRC will thanks them for the clarity on RGR and Special Circumstances. However we will start a campaign for second hand owners affected. And each one of those should write now to their MPs.
It was interesting to hear a verbal comment from someone in these meetings, when asked why the CA had not been involved, answered that the RYA had said they were acting for us. Its just a shame the CA wont take action on this - we are not a confrontational body. As this was said to me in a private capacity - I have said it now.

 

[Graham376]

The letter back to HMRC will thanks them for the clarity on RGR and Special Circumstances. However we will start a campaign for second hand owners affected. And each one of those should write now to their MPs.
It was interesting to hear a verbal comment from someone in these meetings, when asked why the CA had not been involved, answered that the RYA had said they were acting for us. Its just a shame the CA wont take action on this - we are not a confrontational body. As this was said to me in a private capacity - I have said it now.

The first time I wrote to my MP, his standard reply was the RYA are discussing this with HMRC. Not a good answer so I wrote a more detailed letter, including the situation with boats purchased in the EU, to which I am still awaiting a reply.

 

[Cloud 5]

I think this is the specific paragraph that applies?

Goods in an EU member state on 31 December 2020

From 1 January 2021 goods arriving in Great Britain (England, Scotland and Wales) from the EU will be subject to import duties and VAT, unless a relief applies.


To allow importers extra time to return goods to Great Britain from the EU, a special extension period has been agreed.


Goods you transported from the UK and which are in the EU on 31 December 2020 will be eligible for relief even if the normal 3-year time limit for re-importation has expired, if you re-import them into Great Britain on or before 31 December 2021. All other conditions to qualify for the relief must be met.


You will not have to give the actual date the goods were exported from the UK, you will only need to show that the goods were in the UK before 31 December 2020.


This guidance will be updated on 1 January 2021 with all the qualifying conditions for relief for goods returning to the UK from on or after 1 January 2021.

What if you sail to N. Ireland ( it’s part of UK ) .

 

[dunedin]

What if you sail to N. Ireland ( it’s part of UK ) .

Except that what Boris signed off as his “Oven Ready“ Withdrawal Agreement, and Protocol on Ireland / Northern Ireland makes Northern Ireland into a very special place regarding UK and EU rules. It is pretty certain none in our Government fully understand it, so hardly surprising we find it difficult to understand.
But it looks like there could be some great benefits to NI yachtsmen - as it looks like boats in NI will retain both EU and UK VAT status.

 

[Cloud 5]

Except that what Boris signed off as his “Oven Ready“ Withdrawal Agreement, and Protocol on Ireland / Northern Ireland makes Northern Ireland into a very special place regarding UK and EU rules. It is pretty certain none in our Government fully understand it, so hardly surprising we find it difficult to understand.
But it looks like there could be some great benefits to NI yachtsmen - as it looks like boats in NI will retain both EU and UK VAT status.

I wonder if you had your uk yacht in Bangor N.I. , on the 31/12/20 , would you qualify for both EU & Uk vat. .

 

[Chris_Robb]

I am in Greece and will also have my cake as eat it, getting effectively EU and UK vat using RGR and special circumstances on returning to the UK if I ever do

 

[dunedin]

I wonder if you had your uk yacht in Bangor N.I. , on the 31/12/20 , would you qualify for both EU & Uk vat. .

So the EU says - getting there could be tricky now, COVID wise

 

[sailaboutvic]

Although this does not affect me, I would not like to pin my hopes on the consequences of Brexit being interpreted as "exceptional circumstances" by HMRC, especially as the consequences have been clear for over four years.

And I'm not sure I understand your criticism in the final paragraph. Someone buys an item overseas then moves it to a different tax authority. Why would tax not become due? Again, any UK resident buying a boat in the EU within the last four years will have known the consequence of Brexit on the VAT status.

I am 100% opposed to Brexit, however I am very frustrated that so many people are only just (too late) beginning to realise its cost. Why did more people not consider that, after three and a half years of trying and failing to reach any acceptable deal with EU, that it might not be a sensible thing to continue with? I understand the gullible being taken in by the Boris bus, but the UK had an election just 12 months ago that gave an opportunity to turn this around. One party stood on the platform of overturning Brexit. Sadly many of those complaining now were either too ignorant or apathetic to take this opportunity.

It's understandable people like your self in the , I'm ok jack camp , take that view , but to tho who brought a boat in the EU with invoices that show VAT was paid in the UK while the UK was in the EU are now being treated very unfairly ,
I guess this is very unlikely to change without the backing of the boating organisation.

 

[Ningaloo]

It's understandable people like your self in the , I'm ok jack camp , take that view , but to tho who brought a boat in the EU with invoices that show VAT was paid in the UK while the UK was in the EU are now being treated very unfairly ,
I guess this is very unlikely to change without the backing of the boating organisation.

No, I'm certainly not ok, although I won't be caught by the VAT changes.
I will be denied the lifestyle I have adopted for the last 16 years, basing my boat in continental Europe and spending my summers there.
My comment was not that the VAT rules are "fair" (IMO nothing about Brexit is fair) just that there has been a significant period for those affected to prepare.
Anyone affected adversely by Brexit has my sympathy.

 

[nortada]

No, I'm certainly not ok, although I won't be caught by the VAT changes.
I will be denied the lifestyle I have adopted for the last 16 years, basing my boat in continental Europe and spending my summers there.
My comment was not that the VAT rules are "fair" (IMO nothing about Brexit is fair) just that there has been a significant period for those affected to prepare.
Anyone affected adversely by Brexit has my sympathy.

The problem with trying to prepare, nobody is too sure what was required to prepare.

Yes, if possible, getting residency in an EU country was a given but what after that?

Nobody really knows and that is still the case at this very late stage.

Thanks to the politicians’ pissing contest, ‘nothing is agreed until everything is agreed’ everything thing is up in the air.

When the beast (sorry the agreement) is rolled out I suspect, for better or worse, it will be very different to anything we have imagined.