HHow long is too long (solo sailing)?

[Refueler]

Thank you for confirming what a lot of us already knew - that a number of the RYA qualifications are irrelevant to singlehanders. But I hadn't realised they are actively hostile towards them. You seem to be suggesting that a singlehander could never pass the YMO exam?

I'm curious, though. I can't find any mention either here: Yachtmaster Ocean exam or here: Qualifying passages that singlehanders aren't elligible, or that qualifying passages must be "sailed with crew".

Maybe the RYA should update their website

Surely the solution is to get a few pals from your club or sailing location to crew for you on the day / passages to qualify ?

But as its shown - the general point of the RYA and any other 'states' tickets - is the ability to 'command' the boat ... being able to sail it is only a part of the whole ... rest is how to 'manage' others on-board whether participating in the sailing duties or not ...

 

[HunterWanderer]

Agree 100%

I failed a candidate on his Yachtmaster Ocean recently. He announced that he’d run a watch system of four hours on watch four hours awake and on standby and four hours sleep time. In other words eight hours awake and perhaps three and a half hours sleep for days at a time. His crew must have been walking zombies after a week of that. It’s simply not enough sleep time to keep the crew fit and refreshed and ready for any emergency etc. (It wasn’t the only reason he failed.)

I agreed at first but maybe the on watch person was expected to use the standby to cover while getting a nap during quiet times, which is most of the time when on a long cruise.
It means that the two crew can take it in turn to get some sleep or rest yet kitted up for the deck conditions.
Actually sounds really good crew management to me.

 

[westernman]

I dined with a couple a few years ago on their boat in the Med. The lady (an American who was new to sailing) asked us firstly what wind strength we considered to be too strong to set sail. Then she said did we think it right to go to sleep at Midnight together and set the alarm for day break? That was apparently what her partner/ skipper (a Frenchman) did. He thought that crossing from say, Barcelona to Corsica was too dull to bother with so just set his autopilot and went to bed.

It made me keep a more careful watch on our next night passage.

In all seriousness, a factor that hasn't been mentioned in terms of solo hours is the weather and the moon. On some clear moonlit nights I can happily sail long periods as though it were daylight, but not so if it's horrible weather and you are peering forward to see as far as the bow. Hence I don't think there is a one size fits all answer to the original question.

When hopping down the Costa Brava in the middle of the day with a nice gentle breeze, perfect sailing weather, we came across a Spanish sailing yacht where they had gone to bed.

We gave 5 blasts on the horn as they were crossing our tracks and we were the stand on vessel (they were on port, we were on starboard). The guy came up onto deck stark naked with his d*** at half mast and dripping......

 

[stu9000]

"Fresh from the Royal Marines" means a very great deal (fitness, attitude, motivation, risk acceptance etc), imho....as opposed to having stood down from a career in say digital marketing or accountancy...at age 30.
Respect!

I loved his book. Close to the Wind. Respect indeed.

 

[stu9000]

Thank you for confirming what a lot of us already knew - that a number of the RYA qualifications are irrelevant to singlehanders. But I hadn't realised they are actively hostile towards them. You seem to be suggesting that a singlehander could never pass the YMO exam?

I'm curious, though. I can't find any mention either here: Yachtmaster Ocean exam or here: Qualifying passages that singlehanders aren't elligible, or that qualifying passages must be "sailed with crew".

Maybe the RYA should update their website

Im brushing up on my theory now, hoping to do the YM practical this spring. I don't think it is unreasonable to consider crew management as part of the assessment. I will check, but my assumption is that I should have crew on board when I do the test.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Surely the solution is to get a few pals from your club or sailing location to crew for you on the day / passages to qualify ?

But as its shown - the general point of the RYA and any other 'states' tickets - is the ability to 'command' the boat ... being able to sail it is only a part of the whole ... rest is how to 'manage' others on-board whether participating in the sailing duties or not ...

I seem to recall that being specifically laid out. That being the skipper for the YM qualification was about leading the crew. Perhaps there should be a separate one for single handers. Though maybe the RYA does not condone breaches of the colregs,

 

[john_morris_uk]

I agreed at first but maybe the on watch person was expected to use the standby to cover while getting a nap during quiet times, which is most of the time when on a long cruise.
It means that the two crew can take it in turn to get some sleep or rest yet kitted up for the deck conditions.
Actually sounds really good crew management to me.

Regrettably that’s not what he meant or permitted. The standby watch were not allowed to be napping. He insisted they were up and dressed and cooking or cleaning etc.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Regrettably that’s not what he meant or permitted. The standby watch were not allowed to be napping. He insisted they were up and dressed and cooking or cleaning etc.

Was his name Bligh, by any chance?

 

[john_morris_uk]

Was his name Bligh, by any chance?

It ought to have been.

At one point they were becalmed and the crew asked if they could take it turns to go for a swim. He refused saying “You can swim when we get there!”

 

[RunAgroundHard]

It ought to have been.

At one point they were becalmed and the crew asked if they could take it turns to go for a swim. He refused saying “You can swim when we get there!”

Crazy! Swimming in the deep ocean, far, far from land is almost a right of passage as well as fun and a stress breaker.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Crazy! Swimming in the deep ocean, far, far from land is almost a right of passage as well as fun and a stress breaker.

I have to admit that despite being a diver the one time I did it when the ocean was a proverbial mill pond like a mirror, I felt decidedly uncomfortable and have never done it since.

 

[potentillaCO32]

I would get scared of heights or more accurately the huge depth below me. Irrational fear.
I get it a bjt when my depth sounder goes to 50m then 60m then disappears even in my boat.

 

[Roberto]

my depth sounder goes to 50m then 60m then disappears even in my boat.

Mine displays "DEEP"

 

[john_morris_uk]

Crazy! Swimming in the deep ocean, far, far from land is almost a right of passage as well as fun and a stress breaker.

I agree. It’s an amazing feeling when you swim in water a couple of miles deep.

 

[Dockhead]

Regrettably that’s not what he meant or permitted. The standby watch were not allowed to be napping. He insisted they were up and dressed and cooking or cleaning etc.

That's really stupid, of course, and you rightly failed him.

I am, on the contrary, chasing the crew into their bunks when they're off watch, sometimes harshly. I need fresh, alert forces to work with, and I don't want them missing sleep doing something useless. Another important skipper job is carefully monitoring the condition of the crew, watching how much sleep they get, whether they're eating and drinking enough water, asking them how they feel, monitoring morale, etc.

We do a variety of different watch schedules on my boats, depending on crew resources available, but almost all of them require 8 on and 16 off, in various combinations of hours, usually 4 and 8, 4 and 8. This works starting with 3 people on board, but the more the better (I had 7 on my recent Atlantic crossing). With 8 hours between watches you can usually get 6 hours of sleep on one of your off watches, and if you get at least a nap during the other 8 off, then you're fine, in fully sustainable mode, and able to cook, clean, splice, read, etc., to boot, and go on like that happily for weeks. It's very good to have more crew resources than the minimum required, so you have a pinch hitter available to take over from someone who is tired, not feeling well, etc. Very often as the skipper I am not in the watch schedule at all, so that I am available to step in when needed, to double a watch in bad weather, or take over when someone is tired. It's a big boost of morale when crew know they can beg off if they feel bad, that there is always someone who can take over. This beats the hell out of finding someone sleeping in the cockpit when they should have been on watch (I learned about that the hard way).

The answer to the OP's question is -- crew. That's why God made crew. More people, even landlubbers, to keep a watch at least, and allow you to rest and be fresh and cogent. Human beings, viewed as machines, need sleep as well as food and water. If you want worthwhile output form them, you must assure the inputs. Unrested crew is a good recipe for shipwreck.

 

[Obi]

Sailing beyond home waters: I used to depart before first light, sail into the day, over night and through the next day on passages >180nm. i don't remember doing 2 nights consecutive solo.
I was younger then, it was easier. I followed the 10minute nap, get up, check everything, then have another 10 min nap. An approach not recommended and certainly only considered several hours out and away from the coast lines.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

We get around this rest problem by arriving in our destination port quickly.

 

[john_morris_uk]

That's really stupid, of course, and you rightly failed him.

I am, on the contrary, chasing the crew into their bunks when they're off watch, sometimes harshly. I need fresh, alert forces to work with, and I don't want them missing sleep doing something useless. Another important skipper job is carefully monitoring the condition of the crew, watching how much sleep they get, whether they're eating and drinking enough water, asking them how they feel, monitoring morale, etc.

We do a variety of different watch schedules on my boats, depending on crew resources available, but almost all of them require 8 on and 16 off, in various combinations of hours, usually 4 and 8, 4 and 8. This works starting with 3 people on board, but the more the better (I had 7 on my recent Atlantic crossing). With 8 hours between watches you can usually get 6 hours of sleep on one of your off watches, and if you get at least a nap during the other 8 off, then you're fine, in fully sustainable mode, and able to cook, clean, splice, read, etc., to boot, and go on like that happily for weeks. It's very good to have more crew resources than the minimum required, so you have a pinch hitter available to take over from someone who is tired, not feeling well, etc. Very often as the skipper I am not in the watch schedule at all, so that I am available to step in when needed, to double a watch in bad weather, or take over when someone is tired. It's a big boost of morale when crew know they can beg off if they feel bad, that there is always someone who can take over. This beats the hell out of finding someone sleeping in the cockpit when they should have been on watch (I learned about that the hard way).

The answer to the OP's question is -- crew. That's why God made crew. More people, even landlubbers, to keep a watch at least, and allow you to rest and be fresh and cogent. Human beings, viewed as machines, need sleep as well as food and water. If you want worthwhile output form them, you must assure the inputs. Unrested crew is a good recipe for shipwreck.

We are of identical minds except that when operating with minimum crew I tend to go to three on six off. Two reasons. Firstly three hours on watch alone is much more manageable than four and secondly four on eight off means you always stand the same watch every day and I like to rotate the night watches. Or put it another way; with three on six off, every third day you get to have midnight to 0600 in your bunk so you feel like you’ve had a proper nights sleep. However I appreciate that some people like the same watch times every day.

I too have run watch bills where I’m not included but always on standby. My only personal rule in those circumstances is to never be asleep during an entire watch. In other words I’m always up and chatting to every watch at some point.

My other personal rule is to ensure the whole crew meet and chat every day. Normally just before the evening meal going into the night watches. A chance to discuss progress, check crew morale etc etc.

 

[Stemar]

I agree. It’s an amazing feeling when you swim in water a couple of miles deep.

Just so long as you don't all go in at once. I heard of a boat that was becalmed in the med, so they all jumped in. It was great fun until the wind got up, and the boat drifted off faster than they could swim...

As for rest on a long solo or short-handed trip, in the Channel, with good visibility, I'd have a good look round, set an alarm on my phone for 10 minutes, and snooze. The alarm wakes me, good look round, repeat.

I've never done blue water, but outside areas with significant commercial shipping, I'd be reasonably happy to rely on radar and AIS alarms, and sleep for longer. With the number of grey fleet ships spoofing their AIS or turning it off completely, I don't think I'd want to rely on just the AIS.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

We are of identical minds except that when operating with minimum crew I tend to go to three on six off. Two reasons. Firstly three hours on watch alone is much more manageable than four and secondly four on eight off means you always stand the same watch every day and I like to rotate the night watches. Or put it another way; with three on six off, every third day you get to have midnight to 0600 in your bunk so you feel like you’ve had a proper nights sleep. However I appreciate that some people like the same watch times every day.

I too have run watch bills where I’m not included but always on standby. My only personal rule in those circumstances is to never be asleep during an entire watch. In other words I’m always up and chatting to every watch at some point.

My other personal rule is to ensure the whole crew meet and chat every day. Normally just before the evening meal going into the night watches. A chance to discuss progress, check crew morale etc etc.

Crew management or knowledge is important as you say. This was really brought home to me late on in my sailing life on a trip from Falmouth to the Azores with a very good friend who I had sailed with for a long time but limited to coastal and cross channel trips apart from one short 500 mile trip. He was to all intents and purposes sound, could keep a watch and cook underway. However for whatever reason ( it was a boisterous passage to say the least) he couldn't and didn't sleep for over 72 hours and I found him sitting in the heads not aware of where he was almost at the stage of hallucinating. I got him into his bunk and he eventually collapsed into a deep sleep for the better part of 24 hours after which he was fine. We were doing 3hr watches but for the rest of the outward trip if he was asleep at the end of his off watch 3hours I gave him another half or one hour depending on how I felt or what needed to be done. After that, return journey and one more 4 day trip he adjusted to the rhythm of watch keeping with no problems.