Hfl generator problem - help

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John100156

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I have a H2W6M1C HFL 6kW diesel generator which recently developed a leak on its sea-water pump mechanical seal, so I replaced the pump (ASAP managed to get it to me in SCM Spain within a couple of days which I thought was excellent!).

However, when I fitted the new pump and started her up, engine functioned well, I only saw 100VAC for a short while (3 mins) and then 0VAC - I expect a fuse may have gone leading to the latter result, but the former 100VAC really concerns me. I wonder if the leak, which went unnoticed, permeated and damaged the generator winding's :-(

Anyway, I had to return to the UK so could not test anything out, I have tried to get service information from HFL both in Germany and UK but they continue to ignore my requests for a workshop manual and/or information regarding schematics, winding resistances and the like - most disappointing and very poor customer service IMO.

I have read a thread an old thread on here that reported similar defects, but it didn't publish the final outcome. My first thoughts are:

1) Capacitor (no brushes on these generators) - I hope....
2) AVR - Not too bad as long as I can find it.....
3) Winding(s) shorted-out due to water ingress - yuk....

Does anyone have any information on these generators, a workshop manual or details of winding resistances and/or how to strip the generator from engine would be most useful. If I can establish the fault, I would prefer to strip it down in-situ or as a last resort, remove it from the boat for repair, if its winding's have to be re-wound

If anyone on the Forum can help, it would be much appreciate!
 
Unlikely that sea water from the pump has got into the windings - unless seawater cooling inside generator has become porous but very unlikely. Also there are no brushes. First place to start is the capacitors as its easy and cheap to swap them. There are two (from memory) inside a 8" x 8" metal box on top of the generator. Make sure all shore power is disconnected and take the 4 screws out. Inside there are two white tubes. can't remember the values but they are very similar to the correction capacitors in flourescent lights. So if you are in Spain take them to an electrical wholesaler/trade counter and they may well have something close enough. The other thing that can go on them is the diodes in the self excitation winding on the armature. I think from memory there was a thread a few years ago about changing them so have a search.
 
Yes, I had seen that thread when in Spain and it was most useful. I'll find the link again and post it up later.

It was a rather bizarre sequence of events really; just before leaving the boat in April, one of the last things I did was run-up the generator. It worked fine as usual, so I ran her for 10 mins no alarms, sea-cock was open and then switched her off. Got distracted, so did not go below to check all was OK and to valve-off the sea-cock.

I was shocked when arriving this time to find the bilge compartment where the genny sits (no bilge pump within) was full of water, it has an overflow (large hole in separating bulkhead) that flows into the engine room compartment which thankfully contains the mid-ship bilge pump! But, the hole is higher than the base of the generator (original factory installation), so it seems the base of the genny was likely under water for some time, which may have penetrated the casing/windings. Having allowed a few days for everything to dry, you could clearly see that a leak had originated from the SW pump mechanical seal. When stripped one blade of the impeller had failed blocking the outlet, I suspect this fault set-up some form of siphon, continuously dripping SW into the genny compartment - quite bizarre. This was seen when we opened the casing. Allowed a couple of days to dry-out, fitted a new pump and seemed OK, but the genny only produced 100 VAC then 0 VAC.

I am trying hard to locate a workshop manual or useful info on this generator: H2W6M1C and HFL are not being very helpful. I know it does not have brushes and I know all about capacitors and diodes, etc., and I hope that is what the fault turns out to be, but I could do with a wiring schematic and some info on the genny, windings, AVR, etc., so that I can properly test the unit when next out in July. My approach as you say will be as follows:

1) Fuses and connections
2) Capacitor(s)
3) Diodes
4) AVR
5) Megga out the windings :-(

If anyone has any useful information or even pictures of one of these generators, they would be very much appreciated.
 
Many of these generators are generic versions of another maker's unit. Paguro make generators with Volpi alternators for Mastervolt, Fischer Panda, HFL, Westerbeke, etc. Sometimes the casing is made to look different, but what's inside is virtually identical.

I have had a look at the similar capacity Paguro 6 KVA, but that uses a Lombardini engine, yours has a Mitsubishi L2E.

Many of the alternators within are made by Volpi, but I can't find anything explaining in higher detail how these things work, wiring diagrams, etc.

The Boatdiesel site claims to have many manuals, but wants you to take out a paid for membership.

For advice Advance Yacht Systems in Romsey - Rod Boreham, have been very helpful in the past. For diesel engine parts Mitcham Diesels offer sensible prices without the marine word included.

If the alternator has been flooded then dismantle from the engine, flush thoroughly with fresh water, then blow dry as thoroughly as you can, then bake at a low heat (below 100oC) in an oven to get the thing dry. Avoid meggaring a damp motor as this can cause permanent earth tracks.

If I can find a decent technical manual for one of these generators electrical end I will let you know.
 
superheat6k said:
Many of these generators are generic versions of another maker's unit. Paguro make generators with Volpi alternators for Mastervolt, Fischer Panda, HFL, Westerbeke, etc. Sometimes the casing is made to look different, but what's inside is virtually identical.

I have had a look at the similar capacity Paguro 6 KVA, but that uses a Lombardini engine, yours has a Mitsubishi L2E.

Many of the alternators within are made by Volpi, but I can't find anything explaining in higher detail how these things work, wiring diagrams, etc.

The Boatdiesel site claims to have many manuals, but wants you to take out a paid for membership.

For advice Advance Yacht Systems in Romsey - Rod Boreham, have been very helpful in the past. For diesel engine parts Mitcham Diesels offer sensible prices without the marine word included.

If the alternator has been flooded then dismantle from the engine, flush thoroughly with fresh water, then blow dry as thoroughly as you can, then bake at a low heat (below 100oC) in an oven to get the thing dry. Avoid meggaring a damp motor as this can cause permanent earth tracks.

If I can find a decent technical manual for one of these generators electrical end I will let you know.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that, all sounds good to me and thanks for trying to find further info, much appreciated.

The HFL does have the Mitsy L2E motor which is working well, I have not had time to try to open-up or split the generator from the motor yet, I was hoping for some OEM info first, these are very popular machines and I would expect HFL to respond, but they have not bothered yet!

Not a lot of room to work on in-situ (what's new) but reasonable access can be gained. I can get into the terminal box on top, where I expect to find the capacitor(s) and terminals, etc. Will trace-out what I can.

Anyway, if any further info can be found it would be appreciated.
 
Just had an email from HFL asking me what info I need - I have responded, so lets see what they come back with.

Still not found any specific info on these generators (HFL - H2W6M1C) which surprises me, a lot of boats have them fitted, surely there is someone out there that has worked on them before?????
 
Oh well, I have tried to chase HFL but no useful response. Boatdiesel only has general datasheets and I can't track-down or get hold of a manual on the HFL H2W6MIC 6kW Generator despite numerous searches - looks like I am going to have to do it the hard way when next out to SCM in a few weeks time - that it to strip it down and trace out the circuitry - I suppose the easiest way is to get someone in, but I would like to establish what the fault is myself first! To get the true resistance of the windings I suppose I would attach a multimeter measuring amps in series with a 6V Battery and the winding and measure the current flow, this will give me the resistance of the winding I expect better than a meter reading continuity in ohms.

If anyone has a service manual for one of these generators, could they please PM me - happy to pay for copying and/or posting of course.......!
 
John this is very much a long shot and involves putting others (Elessar = Mark, or volvoPaul) to some trouble, but here goes, and fwiw

I and a couple of co-owners had a blue hulled 1999 Fairline Phantom 42 called then and still called "Brave Heart" with this I think genset. It was definitely HFL genset 5-6kva in a clamshell GRP box w cream colour gelcoat, matching the google images of your model. We sold that boat in 2003. Nowadays, several owners later, it is berthed next to Elessar's boat in Southampton and Elessar knows the owner. Possibly VolvoPaul does too - not sure. Anyway, we sold the boat with all the manuals of course. I have no idea whether, ~4 owners on, the manuals have been lost but there is a slim chance that the manual is on the boat and photocopy-able. I have zero contact with the current owner; only Elessar/VP do.

Obviously this might be too long a longshot but I'm struggling to think of ways to help you in your predicament so I thought I'd throw it in. Good luck
 
Hi JFM,

Thanks for that, I have their email(s) so will make contact in case they miss this thread, a longshot perhaps, but certainly worth pursuing...!

I do have to look at a new Project in Southampton shortly, an operating theatre to a private hospital, so could easily pop-in. Thanks again.

John
 
jfm said:
John this is very much a long shot and involves putting others (Elessar = Mark, or volvoPaul) to some trouble, but here goes, and fwiw

I and a couple of co-owners had a blue hulled 1999 Fairline Phantom 42 called then and still called "Brave Heart" with this I think genset. It was definitely HFL genset 5-6kva in a clamshell GRP box w cream colour gelcoat, matching the google images of your model. We sold that boat in 2003. Nowadays, several owners later, it is berthed next to Elessar's boat in Southampton and Elessar knows the owner. Possibly VolvoPaul does too - not sure. Anyway, we sold the boat with all the manuals of course. I have no idea whether, ~4 owners on, the manuals have been lost but there is a slim chance that the manual is on the boat and photocopy-able. I have zero contact with the current owner; only Elessar/VP do.

Obviously this might be too long a longshot but I'm struggling to think of ways to help you in your predicament so I thought I'd throw it in. Good luck
Click to expand...

Yep I know the owners well. I know the genny became a toaster a couple of months back but the new owner is an engineer and would have looked after the manuals if he had them. I'm unlikely to see them for a week or so but will chase this for John
 
If you are measuring the windings resistances a conventional ohmmeter will not give a very accurate reading.

On our large industrial compressor motors we use 1000v meggers which when set to ohms will read at low voltage to two decimal points to get a more reliable low ohms reading. A decent meter will be at least £100 on Ebay.

However, it is possible to use a conventional meter to get a decent low ohms reading by creating a Wheatstone Bridge. This requires several accurate close tolerance resistors. Google has plenty of info explaining how to create one and use it.
 
Thanks Trevor,

Wow a wheatstone bridge, now I recall studying them along with thermionic valves when I did my electrical technicians C&G back in the 70's..... yikes, that was a long time ago, sad thing is I still have my notes ;-)

I have a Megga in the garage, I will check it tomorrow otherwise I reckon a constant 6vdc connected in series with the winding(s) and a meter set to read amps should enable a reasonably accurate reading to be taken of current then establish R given by R = V / I. I must make sure it has enough correct range though when reading amps.... If Mark can get hold of the manual that would help.
 
John100156 said:
I have a H2W6M1C HFL 6kW diesel generator which recently developed a leak on its sea-water pump mechanical seal, so I replaced the pump (ASAP managed to get it to me in SCM Spain within a couple of days which I thought was excellent!).

However, when I fitted the new pump and started her up, engine functioned well, I only saw 100VAC for a short while (3 mins) and then 0VAC - I expect a fuse may have gone leading to the latter result, but the former 100VAC really concerns me. I wonder if the leak, which went unnoticed, permeated and damaged the generator winding's :-(

Anyway, I had to return to the UK so could not test anything out, I have tried to get service information from HFL both in Germany and UK but they continue to ignore my requests for a workshop manual and/or information regarding schematics, winding resistances and the like - most disappointing and very poor customer service IMO.

I have read a thread an old thread on here that reported similar defects, but it didn't publish the final outcome. My first thoughts are:

1) Capacitor (no brushes on these generators) - I hope....
2) AVR - Not too bad as long as I can find it.....
3) Winding(s) shorted-out due to water ingress - yuk....

Does anyone have any information on these generators, a workshop manual or details of winding resistances and/or how to strip the generator from engine would be most useful. If I can establish the fault, I would prefer to strip it down in-situ or as a last resort, remove it from the boat for repair, if its winding's have to be re-wound

If anyone on the Forum can help, it would be much appreciate!
Click to expand...
 
Hi I cannot navigate this site to answer the problem with the HFL generator,so i hope that i am talking to the wright person. i repair generators for a living, IT is very simple to check it for the fault, just 3 steeps and you can pinpoint it to an area ie Stator, Rotor or the AVR which on this unit is a capacitor. Yours Paul
 
HI Paul, Thanks for your reply. Can you please advise the three steps - the generator is installed on my boat in Spain, so any useful advice would be much appreciated until Mark tries to obtain further manufacturers information for me. HFL have not come back to me since their original email, most disappointing.

I would prefer to keep this in open forum as it may assist others with similar problems in the future....!
 
Elessar said:
Yep I know the owners well. I know the genny became a toaster a couple of months back but the new owner is an engineer and would have looked after the manuals if he had them. I'm unlikely to see them for a week or so but will chase this for John
Click to expand...

Hi Mark - have you been able to speak to the owner yet? I am back out to SCM on 25th, it would be great to get a copy of it before I go back out if you can.
 
John100156 said:
Hi Mark - have you been able to speak to the owner yet? I am back out to SCM on 25th, it would be great to get a copy of it before I go back out if you can.
Click to expand...

Oh well, looks like Mark is busy so I am going out next Friday, to see if I can sort it out myself by stripping the Genny down and tracing out the circuitry...

HFL have been no help whatsoever, I am surprised as this is a popular generator manufacturer. I will not be buying HFL again that's for sure, they appear not to take their duty of care to their customers seriously and their after sales service is abysmal.....!
 
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