Help With Penta MS2 Gearbox

[dje67]

I could do with a little help in diagnosing a fault with my MS2 gearbox.

Took the boat out today and was motorong around for about half an hour. I then found that I had no forward or reverse drive at all. Ended up getting the marina workboat to bring me into the marina. Bit embarrassing, really!

Anyway, when I doscovered this, the gearbox was very warm, the oil looks a bit dirty and there was a slight trace of blue smoke and a slight burning smell. So I suspect that I've worn the selector cone. Not yet done any investigative work yet (was in a bad mood with the boat when I eventually got back along side and couldn't face doing anything with it until I'd calmed-down and done a little homework.

The engine is a Volve Penta MD2040, with an MS2 LD gearbox onto a conventional shaft.

If it is the cone, are they expensive? Any cheap suppliers around?

Can I simply remove the selector shaft assembly off the side of the grarbox?

If the cone is knackered, I guess it has become completely detached and is lying in the bottom of the gearbox - does this sound plausible?

Will I need to remove the gearbox?

Are there any other checks that can be done that are not too invasive that will help establish the cause?

Are there any other known faults on the MS2 LD box that would result in no forward or reverse drive at all?

If I have to remove the box, what other preventative maintenance would be worth doing at the same time?


Is there a workshop manual for these gearboxes?


BTW the linkages for gear select and throttle are both operating OK.



Sorry for all the questions - loads of things going through my head at the moment, having just had my first "rescue", in zero knots of wind!

Many thanks in advance.

 

[david_bagshaw]

I could do with a little help in diagnosing a fault with my MS2 gearbox.

Took the boat out today and was motorong around for about half an hour. I then found that I had no forward or reverse drive at all. Ended up getting the marina workboat to bring me into the marina. Bit embarrassing, really!

Anyway, when I doscovered this, the gearbox was very warm, the oil looks a bit dirty and there was a slight trace of blue smoke and a slight burning smell. So I suspect that I've worn the selector cone. Not yet done any investigative work yet (was in a bad mood with the boat when I eventually got back along side and couldn't face doing anything with it until I'd calmed-down and done a little homework.

The engine is a Volve Penta MD2040, with an MS2 LD gearbox onto a conventional shaft.

If it is the cone, are they expensive? Any cheap suppliers around?doubt it as it is volvo

Can I simply remove the selector shaft assembly off the side of the grarbox?

If the cone is knackered, I guess it has become completely detached and is lying in the bottom of the gearbox - does this sound plausible?About as likely as winning the lottery If it is it will still need replacing, as the cone facings wear. So it will still be on the shaft, but unable to be pushed up tight enough to transmit drive

Will I need to remove the gearbox? Yes unless you are a gynae. Be easier to remove

Are there any other checks that can be done that are not too invasive that will help establish the cause?

Are there any other known faults on the MS2 LD box that would result in no forward or reverse drive at all?

If I have to remove the box, what other preventative maintenance would be worth doing at the same time?dont know , some volvo boxes have troubles with input shaft splines, dont know if yours is one of them


Is there a workshop manual for these gearboxes?


BTW the linkages for gear select and throttle are both operating OK.



Sorry for all the questions - loads of things going through my head at the moment, having just had my first "rescue", in zero knots of wind!

Many thanks in advance.

sorry to hear of the troubles others more knowledgeable on you box will be along soon

 

[VicS]

Not sure which part you mean by "the selector cone"

SEE DIAGRAM AND PARTS LIST

Engagement of the gears is made by moving the sliding sleeve #22 up and down into contact, via cones, with the gears above or below it.

Its unlikely that both cones will have worn simultaneously so the fault may well be with the selector mechanism. Either the external connection to the control lever or the selector dog #35 or associated parts

Check the operation at the gearbox to determine if the fault is internal or external.

You should be able to remove the selector mechanism,

AFAIK the splines problem only relates to the 2001/2/3 series of engines

 

[dje67]

It looks like part 35 is the bit I was thiking of.

It was such a sudden failure, from working fine getting out the marina, to having no drive at all (nor wind to sail back, and ended up drifting around towards a lovely big coal carrier...!).

I'll have a dig-around the selector mechanism to see whether it has completely parted somehow. When engaging forward or reverse, there was no sound at all which indicated that the gears were even attempting to engage, so it must be something pretty catastrophic, rather than a wear-out failure mechanism.

Thanks,
David.

 

[Iliade]

Blast, bother and damnation.

I could do with a little help in diagnosing a fault with my MS2 gearbox.

Took the boat out today and was motorong around for about half an hour. I then found that I had no forward or reverse drive at all. Ended up getting the marina workboat to bring me into the marina. Bit embarrassing, really!

Mine had similar symptoms. Looked not overly closely to find back half of gearbox separated from front and gears in the bilges. Caused by damaged shaft/coupling mating surfaces initiating misalignment and consequent fatigue failure of casting.

Ensure shaft cannot fall out far enough to disengage shaft seal or the boat will sink on mooring...

MS box cooled rear bearing is water cooled & waterway prone to furring up which could ultimately induce cone failure.

 

[dje67]

Mine had similar symptoms. Looked not overly closely to find back half of gearbox separated from front and gears in the bilges. Caused by damaged shaft/coupling mating surfaces initiating misalignment and consequent fatigue failure of casting.

Ensure shaft cannot fall out far enough to disengage shaft seal or the boat will sink on mooring...

MS box cooled rear bearing is water cooled & waterway prone to furring up which could ultimately induce cone failure.

Yikes! That sounds a painful episode...!

The link attached is my gearbox, taken when I left the boat this evening. Fortunately, all the bits (on the outside, at least!) seem to be in place.

http://i553.photobucket.com/albums/jj388/dje67/IMG_0760_zps03df4de4.jpg


Cheers,
D.

 

[pvb]

MS box cooled rear bearing is water cooled & waterway prone to furring up which could ultimately induce cone failure.

But as all the engine cooling water goes through the oil cooler in the gearbox, it's unlikely that gearbox damage could occur before major engine overheating happened!

 

[pvb]

Is there a workshop manual for these gearboxes?

I haven't seen a manual online, but the exploded parts diagram gives you a good idea of what to expect. Your problem may well be a very simple one. You should start by ensuring that the control cable is actually moving the gear lever on the shift mechanism!

 

[Iliade]

I though a too

But as all the engine cooling water goes through the oil cooler in the gearbox, it's unlikely that gearbox damage could occur before major engine overheating happened!

That's what I thought too...

 

[dje67]

Did a Few More Checks

It's not looking very good....

Went to the boat today and spent a few minutes doing a few quick checks.

First I confirmed that the morse control is definately moving the selector lever. It is.

I also checked that cooling water was OK, which it was (I've got a separate cooling water alarm anyway, so would have spotted that).

Ran the engine at idle. Selected forward and did not get any forward drive (although the shaft did rotate very slowly, but could be stopped by hand). Same on reverse, but no shaft movement at all.

After sitting at idle in forward for a few minutes, I became aware of a sort-of rubber burning smell again and a slight haze in the engine bay. Couldn't see where it was coming from, but when neutral was re-selected it want away.


One thing I did notice was that when forward was engaged the selector lever on the fearbox seemed to be pushed hard forward; possibly too far forward?

When reverse was selected, it felt that the selector was not fully engaging.

So, I think the alignment betwen the morse control and the ahead/astern selector was wrong and I've burned out the selector mechanism. I'll need to take it apart to confirm.

If this is the case, what's my repair options?
What damage might have been done?
Any repair companies recommended or should I just strip it down myself? Done a fair bit of car engine work over the years, so not too worried about having a go; just don't want to do a long drawn out overhaul through not buying all the correct parts.

Ta.

 

[Heckler]

It's not looking very good....

Went to the boat today and spent a few minutes doing a few quick checks.

First I confirmed that the morse control is definately moving the selector lever. It is.

I also checked that cooling water was OK, which it was (I've got a separate cooling water alarm anyway, so would have spotted that).

Ran the engine at idle. Selected forward and did not get any forward drive (although the shaft did rotate very slowly, but could be stopped by hand). Same on reverse, but no shaft movement at all.

After sitting at idle in forward for a few minutes, I became aware of a sort-of rubber burning smell again and a slight haze in the engine bay. Couldn't see where it was coming from, but when neutral was re-selected it want away.


One thing I did notice was that when forward was engaged the selector lever on the fearbox seemed to be pushed hard forward; possibly too far forward?

When reverse was selected, it felt that the selector was not fully engaging.

So, I think the alignment betwen the morse control and the ahead/astern selector was wrong and I've burned out the selector mechanism. I'll need to take it apart to confirm.

If this is the case, what's my repair options?
What damage might have been done?
Any repair companies recommended or should I just strip it down myself? Done a fair bit of car engine work over the years, so not too worried about having a go; just don't want to do a long drawn out overhaul through not buying all the correct parts.

Ta.

There used to be a chap/outfit in caernarfon that would overhaul them, dont know contact details. I know parts are bluddy expensive! I would remove it and strip it first, very straight forward. You sound confident enough to do it.
Stu

 

[Heckler]

It's not looking very good....

Went to the boat today and spent a few minutes doing a few quick checks.

First I confirmed that the morse control is definately moving the selector lever. It is.

I also checked that cooling water was OK, which it was (I've got a separate cooling water alarm anyway, so would have spotted that).

Ran the engine at idle. Selected forward and did not get any forward drive (although the shaft did rotate very slowly, but could be stopped by hand). Same on reverse, but no shaft movement at all.

After sitting at idle in forward for a few minutes, I became aware of a sort-of rubber burning smell again and a slight haze in the engine bay. Couldn't see where it was coming from, but when neutral was re-selected it want away.


One thing I did notice was that when forward was engaged the selector lever on the fearbox seemed to be pushed hard forward; possibly too far forward?

When reverse was selected, it felt that the selector was not fully engaging.

So, I think the alignment betwen the morse control and the ahead/astern selector was wrong and I've burned out the selector mechanism. I'll need to take it apart to confirm.

If this is the case, what's my repair options?
What damage might have been done?
Any repair companies recommended or should I just strip it down myself? Done a fair bit of car engine work over the years, so not too worried about having a go; just don't want to do a long drawn out overhaul through not buying all the correct parts.

Ta.

There used to be a chap/outfit in caernarfon that would overhaul them, dont know contact details. I know parts are bluddy expensive! I would remove it and strip it first, very straight forward. You sound confident enough to do it.
Stu

 

[Dazedkipper]

Gearbox input shaft spline failure? It was/is a known problem with the 2000 series engines with MS2B boxes, don't know if it applies to later enginesbut may be worth considering? Your comment about burning rubber makes me wonder if the flywheel/box connection is via a rubber joint that has failed.

 

[pvb]

Your comment about burning rubber makes me wonder if the flywheel/box connection is via a rubber joint that has failed.

There isn't a rubber joint.

 

[dje67]

Could it be ....

http://www.marinepartseurope.com/en...nd.aspx?Catalog=7746410&Category=21&View=2407

Item 33 - a bit of searching around suggests that the original part 33 could be a rubber-jointed anti-vibration plate. It looks like there's an alternative part with springs. Wonder if mine is (was!) the rubber type, which would definately explain the loss of drive and rubber smell.

Marineparts want £800 for it - surely an alternative is available?

 

[pvb]

http://www.marinepartseurope.com/en...nd.aspx?Catalog=7746410&Category=21&View=2407

Item 33 - a bit of searching around suggests that the original part 33 could be a rubber-jointed anti-vibration plate. It looks like there's an alternative part with springs. Wonder if mine is (was!) the rubber type, which would definately explain the loss of drive and rubber smell.

Marineparts want £800 for it - surely an alternative is available?

Never seen one of those, so don't know its construction. I'd be surprised if there wasn't a fail-safe drive mechanism within it. I'd suggest you ask a couple of VP dealers about it, and about its mode of failure. You'll have to remove the gearbox to get at it to see if it has indeed failed.

If you have to replace it, you'll find a VP dealer should be cheaper than Marineparts - Volspec for example list it at £472 in their online shop.

 

[KREW2]

It sounds like it is the MS2 classic spline failure, but I see yours has a damper fitted. I'm no mechanic but it is worth removing the gearbox to have a look, it's very straight forward if you have good access.

 

[VicS]

It sounds like it is the MS2 classic spline failure, but I see yours has a damper fitted. I'm no mechanic but it is worth removing the gearbox to have a look, it's very straight forward if you have good access.

Pretty sure it only applies to the 2000 series of engines and only prior to engine number 2300059128.

 

[pvb]

Pretty sure it only applies to the 2000 series of engines and only prior to engine number 2300059128.

Yes, the companion flange design was changed to the shock-absorbing version after that. And later engines benefitted from the experience.

 

[RIBW]

To dje67,
I have been agonising over this problem since I experienced a similar problem in Scotland earlier this year and have since committed to buying a yacht with the same gearbox fitted.
There are two separate problems: The splines and the cones. Others have eliminated the possibility of the spline problem because of the style/age of your engine.
I have downloaded as much data on the cone problem from this forum and elsewhere as I can find and condensed it to the bare essentials into a word document. It has reference to a very useful video.
I am not very experienced at this forum posting but I will attempt to email it to you.
Bear in mind that this document was made from my personal perspective and needs to be read with an open mind.
Good luck with resolving the issue.
Bob