Help Pick My First Sailboat!

The Real Flipper

The Real Flipper

Well-Known Member
Joined
16 Feb 2022
Messages
185
Visit site
Hello All,
This is my first post in the YBW forums. I am a novice sailor with a few years of sailing experience on small boats and I'm looking for my first sailboat.
I have a small budget of 20 thousand Euros which should include initial maintenance/repairs, marina fees, and transportation home. So I'm hoping to find a boat for 18K or under.
I am looking for good accommodation as a possible live aboard including refrigeration, heater, and marine heads with holding tank.
Since my budget limits me to older boats I really prefer something re-powered with a freshwater cooled engine, and new standing rigging.
It doesn't have to be pretty or a 'nice' boat. It's just a starter.

Here is my shortlist. Helpful feedback appreciated.
(sorry for the long post and thanks in advance)


1977 Westerly Berwick Cruiser for sale - YachtWorld

SailboatData.com - BERWICK 31 (WESTERLY) Sailboat

+ Excellent headroom and sense of space for size. Very clean and original. Well maintained. Re-powered with Beta B 25, new standing rigging. Refrigeration. Heaviest ballast and displacement in this list could mean more stability. In mast furling mainsail.

- No marine toilet, holding tank, or heater. Already close to the top of my budget. Rumors about stress fractures in these hulls. Would prefer fin keel.



Wibo 945 - YACHTHandel Hamburg /Siek

+ Loaded. Diesel heater, refrigeration, vacuum heads and holding tank, electric windlass. MD 2030 engine. Full electronics suite. Attractive price.

- Steel. Scary potential rust issues in unseen places.



Beneteau First 32 boat for sale, £ 16.008 (€ 18.000)

First 32 Deep Draft (GTE) (Bénéteau) - Sailboat specifications - Boat-Specs.com

+ Re-powered with Nani N3.21. Replaced standing rigging, diesel heater, refrigeration, marine toilet, beamy, spacious for the size, aft heads is nice, leaky window and cosmetic appeal likely dragging down price. This is the 6 ft deep fin model with extra ballast 1650 Kg total, and supposedly points well. Very nice waterline for the size boat of 28ft.

- Cosmetically unappealing, a bit dirty, water damage on chart table and possibly elsewhere, non standard wheel steering (which may have actually been an option since I found another in Florida with the same wheel!)



Sloop Hummingbird 30 , 1980 GBP 9,995 | United Kingdom | Sailing boat for sale

SailboatData.com - HUMMINGBIRD 30 Sailboat

+ Re-powered with Beta 25. Replaced standing rigging. Same boat as well reputed Elizabethan 30 with higher coach roof for more space inside. Rewired. Lots of safety equipment. Large galley. Fantastic price. Potential value cosmetic fixer upper.

- No holding tank, heater, or refrigeration. Cosmetically unappealing especially inside. Narrow, small appearing interior, even with higher coach roof. Ugliest nav station ever.



Jouet 920 in Port de Sitges | Sailing cruisers used 53505 - iNautia 14,400E

SailboatData.com - JOUËT 920 Sailboat

+ MD 2030 engine, beamy, open spacious light interior, aft heads with plenty of room for shower, refrigeration, 26 ft waterline is second place in this comparison. Good price.

- No marine toilet or holding tank, no heater, no renewed standing rigging.



Jupiter 30 in Kent | Sloops used 21021 - iNautia

SailboatData.com - JUPITER 30 Sailboat

+ Re-powered with Yanmar 3YM30. Chainplates and keel bolts reinforced. New cabinetry inside. Specious interior, pressurized hot and cold water, marine toilet, electric windlass.

- No heater, no renewed standing rigging. *Chainplate job looks cosmetically rough, though possibly sturdy. How tall will I have to be to reach into that top loading refrigerator tucked behind those cabinets. Crawl on the counter?



1977 SailboatData.com - MAXI 84 Sailboat

Maxi 84 Sloop for sale - YachtWorld

+ Appears well maintained. Re-powered with Beta Bd722, hull coating done, electric windlass, long list of maintenance items performed, self tailing winch upgrades, 4 sails including spinnaker.

- Smallest interior of the group. Apparently no holding tank. No heater, no refrigeration. No renewed standing rigging.



I suppose I like the First the best but I don't know. I like the Westerly but afraid of costs of adding marine toilet + holding tank + heater when already at high end of my budget.

What do you folks think? Which would you have?
 
You don't say where you are going to use the boat. in this brave new world it makes even more sense to buy a boat where you intend using it, but you are looking a boats in both the EU and UK. Buying a boat in one customs area and taking it to another is no longer a simple activity. Leaving aside the logistics the financial and regulatory costs can be significant or in fact impossible with an older boat.

As to choosing out of your short list really only you can do that. You have such a diverse list with really the only common feature of approximate size and cost. a Westerly Berwick on the same short list as a First 32 is particularly odd! Really none of these boats were built to live on, although people do. They all have compromises and if you are just looking for a permanent home on the water then anything will do, but if you want to go sailing then clearly a boat like the First is a much better sailing boat. But again it depends on where you sail. A Berwick is much more suited to cold northern climates than a First and maybe not the best boat if you plan to take it to the Med.

More questions than answers.

BTW you are right to be wary of costs of doing work and adding features to boats. Such costs are related to today's boat building costs rather than the price you pay for your old boat. If you really are on a tight budget then buy a boat that needs nothing doing to it or adding for the forseeable future as you will easily spend the same again on refurbishment, replacements and updates.
 
fredrussell said:
For my money, the First 32. It’s a 34 ft boat, if you plan to live aboard, there’s a lot to be said for a bit of space.

oh, and welcome!
Click to expand...

Sorry I have a notification problem. Anyway, the sales agency is deflecting people away from the Beneteau. They say it's not a good boat and has 'problems' of which they are non-specific. They do say it may have osmosis and the seller is still firm on the price.

Tranona said:
You don't say where you are going to use the boat. in this brave new world it makes even more sense to buy a boat where you intend using it, but you are looking a boats in both the EU and UK. Buying a boat in one customs area and taking it to another is no longer a simple activity. Leaving aside the logistics the financial and regulatory costs can be significant or in fact impossible with an older boat.

As to choosing out of your short list really only you can do that. You have such a diverse list with really the only common feature of approximate size and cost. a Westerly Berwick on the same short list as a First 32 is particularly odd! Really none of these boats were built to live on, although people do. They all have compromises and if you are just looking for a permanent home on the water then anything will do, but if you want to go sailing then clearly a boat like the First is a much better sailing boat. But again it depends on where you sail. A Berwick is much more suited to cold northern climates than a First and maybe not the best boat if you plan to take it to the Med.

More questions than answers.

BTW you are right to be wary of costs of doing work and adding features to boats. Such costs are related to today's boat building costs rather than the price you pay for your old boat. If you really are on a tight budget then buy a boat that needs nothing doing to it or adding for the forseeable future as you will easily spend the same again on refurbishment, replacements and updates.
Click to expand...

A First 32 is on the same list as the Berwick for purely practical reasons. At this price range there are simply few options in good condition re-powered with a freshwater cooled engine, and new standing rigging. I want to use it from England to Norway and The Netherlands so I need something sea worthy.

It has been a long frustrating search before posting here.

Maybe the Berwick is the best boat now that the First looks like 'damaged goods'. But it needs a heads with holding tank installed. Does this cost a lot? I'd rather not do it myself. I'd rather learn through maintenance than installation.

It will also need a heater. I think a wood stove would be cozy and cool, but again I worry about punching holes in the boat myself and will prefer to pay for the job done.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bru
Holding tanks on old boats are rare as it is not a legal requirement in most places to have one fitted - legislation is usually written around controlling where you can discharge. These boats were never designed for holding tanks and their architecture (size, shape and internal structures) often make it extremely difficult to fit an effective system, particularly in a sub 30' boat. There are basically 2 types of system. The first and most common with new production boats is the above water level gravity systems where a 35-60l tank is situated near the toilet above the waterline and the outlet from the toilet is pumped into the tank and then down to the seacock. Waste is held in the tank by closing the seacock and discharged offshore by opening it, or pumped out through a deck fitting. A quick glance at most (if not all) of the boats on your list will show how difficult it is because the toilet compartments are situated where the hull narrows and there simply is not room to fit the tank and pipework. The second type is to locate the tank below the waterline often under a bunk in one of the cabins close to the toilet and pump the waste into the tank, usually through a valve that allows you to also go direct overboard. The waste tank is then emptied by a separate pump and seacock. The Wibo has a gravity system but also diverter valves so that you can isolate the tank and pump straight out. The Berwick has fitted a chemical toilet which is what many people do to avoid pumping out. Often these are used after the owner has discovered now difficult and expensive it is to fit a holding tank in a boat that was never designed for one!

The first type is cheaper as it may be possible to use a standard dimension tank - material costs with pipes and fittings in the region of £6-800 - more if you need a custom tank to fit the space. The second type will almost certainly need a custom made tank and materials likely to be £1200+. Professional fitting at least as much again as materials. The Berwick will need the second type, and Tek Tanks who are the biggest suppliers in the UK probably have a scheme that will fit the boat. The actual toilet, depending on type will be in the £150-250 range plus fitting.

To be honest I think you have unrealistic expectations of what you can buy with that budget. Those nice features you want have associated costs, particularly if you have them professionally fitted out of all proportion to the value of the boat - and most were not fitted when the boats were built. In today's money, heating is £2500, fridge (if you can find space to fit one) £1000, new rigging £2000, holding tank £2000, engine £8000 - as much as your entire budget for buying a functioning boat with good sails! Of course you have found boats with some of those features, but to stand a chance of getting them all you have to at least double your budget and look at boats in the 32' and upwards built from the mid 1990s on when those features began to be designed in and often fitted from new.
 
As a price guide, we had a complete, new toilet system fitted. Two electrical toilets (£800 each) a new 200l holding tank, deck fittings, skin fittings, pipework, pumps etc, total cost £5k, 25% of your total budget. Granted it was a twin set up it's frightening how a budget can disappear ?
 
Nothing wrong with a Berwick but if a westerly attracts I would think a pentland with a separate stern cabin might appeal or a fin keel variant . As you have probably discovered lots of info on the westerly owners association which is cheaper to join and I’m sure many grey beards there who will no doubt have retrofitted tanks as well as potapotties etc.
Where are you based as that might influence choice.
 
Neeves said:
The OP says he wants to maintain or service - not instal.

Jonathan
Click to expand...

indeed- that’s the way I understood it. I was simply saying that Tranona’s figures, whilst (I’m sure) accurate, can be lessened somewhat if one is prepared to get their hands dirty.
 
fredrussell said:
indeed- that’s the way I understood it. I was simply saying that Tranona’s figures, whilst (I’m sure) accurate, can be lessened somewhat if one is prepared to get their hands dirty.
Click to expand...
I agree, but the OP was clear that he is looking for a ready to sail boat with a high specification including items that are rarely found in boats of the type on his shortlist, almost irrespective of the budget. He made it quite clear that he wanted a boat ready to sail from wherever it is in Europe (or UK) to Norway, but does not want to do any work himself. Such questions come up regularly from people looking to sail off into the sunset (or sunrise!) in a well equipped liveaboard boat with a budget of under £20k. Just unrealistic.

This does not mean it is not possible to go adventuring on a tight budget if you have the knowledge and skills to prepare and maintain the boat yourself and live in a style that reflects the basic nature of what a small old boat has to offer. As I suggested, double the budget and increase the size of boat and you stand a fighting chance because you get into a section of the market where you can find better equipped and more user friendly boats. Unlikely however to find one that does not need some fettling before taking off.
 
The OP should raise the price range in which he is looking.., with the idea of making low offers.

He is still going to be looking at older boats, and it's not uncommon that people just want to be rid of them as the storage and insurance costs are not trivial.

He might get lucky...
 
Are you a UK citizen? If you are and are going to be UK based you'd pay VAT on a boat if you buy in EU & bring it to UK. Again if UK based make sure you have a berth somewhere that's "liveaboard tolerant", it's becoming significantly harder/more expensive to live aboard in UK marinas. Double skinned boats are good for their better insulation and relative lack of condensation, so Sadlers & etaps, e.g., are worth keeping an eye out for and come up in your price range but of the boats you've linked to my choice would be the Berwick. The Wibo does look in remarkably good condition and a credit to its owner but bottom line is it's an old steel boat so you're right it could be a can of worms.

I would add though that if you're working full time you'll be amazed at how little sailing you'll get to do to the extent that it might be worth considering a motor sailer or even dare I say it suitable mobo until you have more time available - they generally have more room for size. I started off 12 years ago living on small sailboats, I now have a Colvic Watson 34 which is eminently suitable for living on FT in UK whilst I still need to work. You can always sail with others on their boats!

Good luck with your plans...(y)
 
Last edited:
Tranona said:
Holding tanks on old boats are rare as it is not a legal requirement in most places to have one fitted - legislation is usually written around controlling where you can discharge. These boats were never designed for holding tanks and their architecture (size, shape and internal structures) often make it extremely difficult to fit an effective system, particularly in a sub 30' boat. There are basically 2 types of system. The first and most common with new production boats is the above water level gravity systems where a 35-60l tank is situated near the toilet above the waterline and the outlet from the toilet is pumped into the tank and then down to the seacock. Waste is held in the tank by closing the seacock and discharged offshore by opening it, or pumped out through a deck fitting. A quick glance at most (if not all) of the boats on your list will show how difficult it is because the toilet compartments are situated where the hull narrows and there simply is not room to fit the tank and pipework. The second type is to locate the tank below the waterline often under a bunk in one of the cabins close to the toilet and pump the waste into the tank, usually through a valve that allows you to also go direct overboard. The waste tank is then emptied by a separate pump and seacock. The Wibo has a gravity system but also diverter valves so that you can isolate the tank and pump straight out. The Berwick has fitted a chemical toilet which is what many people do to avoid pumping out. Often these are used after the owner has discovered now difficult and expensive it is to fit a holding tank in a boat that was never designed for one!

The first type is cheaper as it may be possible to use a standard dimension tank - material costs with pipes and fittings in the region of £6-800 - more if you need a custom tank to fit the space. The second type will almost certainly need a custom made tank and materials likely to be £1200+. Professional fitting at least as much again as materials. The Berwick will need the second type, and Tek Tanks who are the biggest suppliers in the UK probably have a scheme that will fit the boat. The actual toilet, depending on type will be in the £150-250 range plus fitting.

To be honest I think you have unrealistic expectations of what you can buy with that budget. Those nice features you want have associated costs, particularly if you have them professionally fitted out of all proportion to the value of the boat - and most were not fitted when the boats were built. In today's money, heating is £2500, fridge (if you can find space to fit one) £1000, new rigging £2000, holding tank £2000, engine £8000 - as much as your entire budget for buying a functioning boat with good sails! Of course you have found boats with some of those features, but to stand a chance of getting them all you have to at least double your budget and look at boats in the 32' and upwards built from the mid 1990s on when those features began to be designed in and often fitted from new.
Click to expand...
Thanks that was a lot of helpful information.

harvey38 said:
As a price guide, we had a complete, new toilet system fitted. Two electrical toilets (£800 each) a new 200l holding tank, deck fittings, skin fittings, pipework, pumps etc, total cost £5k, 25% of your total budget. Granted it was a twin set up it's frightening how a budget can disappear ?
Click to expand...
By the sounds of it I suppose I need to brace for either a larger budget, or doing more work myself or most likely- both!

ashtead said:
Nothing wrong with a Berwick but if a westerly attracts I would think a pentland with a separate stern cabin might appeal or a fin keel variant . As you have probably discovered lots of info on the westerly owners association which is cheaper to join and I’m sure many grey beards there who will no doubt have retrofitted tanks as well as potapotties etc.
Where are you based as that might influence choice.
Click to expand...
I'm in The Netherlands. Planning to sail the UK first.

Rhylsailer99 said:
there is a nice hunter 34 for sale in Rhyl boatyard i think its listed on facebook.
Click to expand...
I don't suppose you have a link? I looked up Rhyl boatyard but didn't find it. Hunters as I understand are good value oriented boats which may be perfect for me.

V1701 said:
Are you a UK citizen? If you are and are going to be UK based you'd pay VAT on a boat if you buy in EU & bring it to UK. Again if UK based make sure you have a berth somewhere that's "liveaboard tolerant", it's becoming significantly harder/more expensive to live aboard in UK marinas. Double skinned boats are good for their better insulation and relative lack of condensation, so Sadlers & etaps, e.g., are worth keeping an eye out for and come up in your price range but of the boats you've linked to my choice would be the Berwick. The Wibo does look in remarkably good condition and a credit to its owner but bottom line is it's an old steel boat so you're right it could be a can of worms.

I would add though that if you're working full time you'll be amazed at how little sailing you'll get to do to the extent that it might be worth considering a motor sailer or even dare I say it suitable mobo until you have more time available - they generally have more room for size. I started off 12 years ago living on small sailboats, I now have a Colvic Watson 34 which is eminently suitable for living on FT in UK whilst I still need to work. You can always sail with others on their boats!

Good luck with your plans...(y)
Click to expand...
In The Netherlands I won't have to pay VAT if it's already paid. And boats before I believe 1984 are exempts. I hope this applies to boats from the UK because there is a good chance I'll buy in the UK, because prices look much better than in The Netherlands.

I also like the Berwick. I think I'd prefer a fin keel Longbow (same boat) but the Berwick is what's in good shape, re-powered, etc and available now. I really like the natural light from big windows that makes it feel more comfortable for me, and the big companionway, few steps down to interior, and deep safe feeling cockpit. And call me crazy but I actually like the look of Westerly boats.

I am also impressed with the Wibo and now after this discussion it looks even better because it already has an electric toilet with holding tank, and a diesel heater! At 14 thousand Euros that looks like quite a good value. And as you say it looks like really nice condition. I do worry about it being steel though and want to be careful.
 
The Real Flipper said:
In The Netherlands I won't have to pay VAT if it's already paid. And boats before I believe 1984 are exempts. I hope this applies to boats from the UK because there is a good chance I'll buy in the UK, because prices look much better than in The Netherlands.
Click to expand...

You should check this closely because as I understand it when UK left the EU and became a third country on 31/12/2020 the VAT paid status of of boats was determined by where they were physically located on that date. From then any boat moving from one customs area to another would be subject to VAT and re-certification. so you cannot buy a boat in the UK and use it in the EU without paying VAT. The 1984 exemption applied to the 1992 agreement following the establishment of the EU VAT area and is superseded by the withdrawal agreement. Re-certification is more complex and probably not yet resolved. In the UK it has been delayed until later this year. I do not know about the Netherlands. The exemption (which is nothing to do with the VAT one) was for boats pre-1997 and built in the EEA. It may be that EU states will continue this exemption, but currently it is not clear whether the UK will.

So, whatever happens there is no way you can avoid VAT on a boat bought from the UK, and the boats you are looking at would not meet the requirements of the RCD if this is required.

Yes, boats at this price level are more plentiful and cheaper in the UK because there were far more built here 40 years ago. However, not only will you have great difficulty finding one that meets your criteria, you will have to at least pay VAT on it when you enter the EU and you may not be able to use it at all as an EU citizen because it cannot be certified.

Sorry to be so negative, but that is the reality of the post Brexit situation, and the same constraints apply to UK residents wanting to buy a boat in the EU for use in the UK
 
The Real Flipper said:
I am also impressed with the Wibo and now after this discussion it looks even better because it already has an electric toilet with holding tank, and a diesel heater! At 14 thousand Euros that looks like quite a good value. And as you say it looks like really nice condition. I do worry about it being steel though and want to be careful.
Click to expand...

FWIW my experience of having an electric fresh water flushing to large holding tank via a macerator toilet was after dismantling it and cleaning it all up twice (not a pleasant experience) I eventually hauled the lot out & replaced it with a separator loo. In my opinion these complex set ups are fine and dandy for occasional use on posher boats but for the rufty tufty full time liveaboard sailor they are a royal pain in the arse if you'll pardon the pun (intended haha!). I now have a loo with which nothing whatsoever can go wrong and is easy to use responsibly in marinas or at sea and as a bonus gained a large tool locker in place of the holding tank. Give me a Lavac or a porta potti or a separator, at a push I wouldn't replace a Jabsco if I bought a boat and it had one...(y)
 
Tranona said:
You should check this closely because as I understand it when UK left the EU and became a third country on 31/12/2020 the VAT paid status of of boats was determined by where they were physically located on that date. From then any boat moving from one customs area to another would be subject to VAT and re-certification. so you cannot buy a boat in the UK and use it in the EU without paying VAT. The 1984 exemption applied to the 1992 agreement following the establishment of the EU VAT area and is superseded by the withdrawal agreement. Re-certification is more complex and probably not yet resolved. In the UK it has been delayed until later this year. I do not know about the Netherlands. The exemption (which is nothing to do with the VAT one) was for boats pre-1997 and built in the EEA. It may be that EU states will continue this exemption, but currently it is not clear whether the UK will.

So, whatever happens there is no way you can avoid VAT on a boat bought from the UK, and the boats you are looking at would not meet the requirements of the RCD if this is required.

Yes, boats at this price level are more plentiful and cheaper in the UK because there were far more built here 40 years ago. However, not only will you have great difficulty finding one that meets your criteria, you will have to at least pay VAT on it when you enter the EU and you may not be able to use it at all as an EU citizen because it cannot be certified.

Sorry to be so negative, but that is the reality of the post Brexit situation, and the same constraints apply to UK residents wanting to buy a boat in the EU for use in the UK
Click to expand...

Well that is very helpful, yet very disappointing.
Really too bad because I found an inside line on a Jeanneau Melody for a good price in Ireland.
And so many nice looking older boats in the UK that I liked- Sadler, Rival, Westerly..

And I don't suppose VAT on a sailboat is going to be closer to 5% than to say 30%? Reaching here..

This is probably a dumb question but an 'Israeli flag' boat sold from a Turkish port? Since you seem to have practically a degree in maritime law :)

So considering prior discussion if I raise my budget, and if lowball offers might work, and I look at slightly bigger boats 32-34ft, this one looks pretty well fully loaded and practically made for a live aboard and might be had for 28K Euros?

Jeanneau Espace 1000 boat for sale

Another similar idea, half house, half sailboat ;-)

Beneteau Evasion 34, 1981 EUR 36,000 | France | Sailing boat for sale
 
V1701 said:
FWIW my experience of having an electric fresh water flushing to large holding tank via a macerator toilet was after dismantling it and cleaning it all up twice (not a pleasant experience) I eventually hauled the lot out & replaced it with a separator loo. In my opinion these complex set ups are fine and dandy for occasional use on posher boats but for the rufty tufty full time liveaboard sailor they are a royal pain in the arse if you'll pardon the pun (intended haha!). I now have a loo with which nothing whatsoever can go wrong and is easy to use responsibly in marinas or at sea and as a bonus gained a large tool locker in place of the holding tank. Give me a Lavac or a porta potti or a separator, at a push I wouldn't replace a Jabsco if I bought a boat and it had one...(y)
Click to expand...

Sorry how do you use a marine toilet responsibly in a marina without a holding tank? I'm lost.
Please forgive the ignorance!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Top