Help - is pilothouse yacht right for me?

[West Coast]

Thanks for all the comments, am trying to arrange a viewing of a wauquiez ps 40, just so we can get a feel of what it is like. The seasickness comments are particularly interesting, as if this is to work, my wife needs to be able to be inside on occasions when underway.

 

[rotrax]

I reckon it's probably important to recognise how much you'll lose and gain, before changing from a conventional low-coachroof, open-cockpit yacht. Sleeker pilot-house designs look to me like they're hoping to tempt folk who want the best of both worlds, but I doubt the usability of a low-profile deck-saloon.

I used to dream about the old Nauticat 52 with its big wheelhouse. Finally I stepped aboard one, but it was a late model and its sleeker lines don't offer the same height and visibility. I say that without having been aboard the old model...but I'm confident its towering superstructure and steep windscreens made it better to helm from, than the current one.

Southerlies...same story I think...although in their case, the deckhouse roof was always a bit too recessed to offer a good view...but the later ones made almost no pretence at all.

The designer's ineradicable urge to make even a motor-sailer sail better, progressively erodes these boats' versatility for other purposes. Design gets sleeker, the sunny brochure pics get slicker, but I sincerely doubt the boats are better to be aboard, in the kinds of weather that made buyers retain the option to spend watches out of the wind and rain.

I like sailing too much to be purely happy about buying a boat whose design translates to slow, unrewarding performance...but equally, I like being afloat too much to buy a yacht I won't want to use at all, five months per year. I don't think anyone's building a proper motor-sailer today, because all the designers felt they had to appeal to sailors' climatic optimism, rather than their shrewd knowledge of our disappointing climate. Old-school motor-sailers mostly are old, now, but their unfashionability is a virtue in the UK.

Only one solution...buy two very different boats rather than one which neither rewards nor cossets her crew. Where can I find a Fisher 25 and a Hunter F1, for Centaur money?

That is exactly what we found, but the solution was-for us anyway- an Island Packet SP Cruiser, the only modern production motorsailer. Well, it was at the time, no longer available AFAIK.

Bob Johnson designed it specificaly for a couple of mature age who might otherwise be tempted by the dark side. It has a forward double with an island bed, two singles in a smaller guest cabin, a great galley and a " Jack and Jill " heads/shower. The large pilot house has two side by side pilot seats at the helm with good comfort. The visibility is very good. No outside steering position. The sail handling is assisted by a single Lewmar 40 powered winch.
We have added a secondhand 8KW Genset, a small motorhome type washing machine, Dometic compressor freezer box and a breadmaker. These make extended cruising better-and cheaper.

Biggest drawback is the long shallow keel. She makes serious leeway and going astern is, as you might imagine, a bit of a lottery without serious thought and attention to detail. First Mate, who is I/C steering and coming alongside has learned the technique pretty well. If, as we prefer, we can back into a finger berth, to get on and off we only have to negotiate a shallow step in or out of the pilothouse and another on to the swim platform. From there it is an easy step onto the pontoon. After climbing up the freeboard on previous yachts its lovely!

We have a lovely boat but a fixed income! I am lucky I am able to do most maintenance and repairs myself.

 

[LadyInBed]

It's right for me, each to his own.

 

[Greenheart]

Island Packet SP Cruiser...Bob Johnson designed it specifically for a couple of mature age who might otherwise be tempted by the dark side. The large pilot house has two seats at the helm with good comfort. The visibility is very good. Biggest drawback is the long shallow keel. She makes serious leeway and going astern is...a bit of a lottery...

Whatever the downsides, it sounds like a great decision to me. I bet you haven't cancelled a single holiday because of bad weather.

The better a yacht performs under sail, the less often or eagerly her crew resort to engine...and with that mindset, the idea of planning to regularly end up steering behind glass, under power, seems like abject resignation of the reasons for having a sailing boat...

...but if the boat is designed principally to be comfortable, even if her designer has let the sailing characteristics slide, the crew will quickly get used to the ease and the dryness, and laughing at those inevitable wet squalls and foul forecasts which blight so many summer cruises. Plus, low-season cruising must become pleasurable, in a boat where the weather can be kept outside.

The only downside seems to be the cost of boats built in response to this totally logical conclusion, and their consequent rarity...

...one answer must be a DIY-retrofitted doghouse...maybe one that could be unbolted, when it's time to sell to weather-optimists...

...we have made a semi pilot house to replace our decrepit sprayhood and it works wonders in bad weather. The off-watch can stand in the dry and look out clearly forward for crabpots or ships, and long passages on blustery rainy days are much nicer. Yes a pilot house increases windage going to windward but not that much and by heck, proper shelter is nice.

:encouragement: :encouragement: :encouragement:

 

[Kelpie]

Cost is not the only downside.
Windage gets mentioned, perhaps it is an overstated argument as dodgers, sprayhood, solar panels, dinghies on davits, etc, seem to be perfectly acceptable. All of these things tend to easily removable though, for whatever reason (survival storm, winter afloat, racing).
Another practical issue is that a wheelhouse can be very hard to see over/past/through when you are at the helm.
Not everybody wants to ruin their cockpit ergonomics in order to allow them to sail in rubbish weather, in which they probably don't want to sail anyway.

 

[rotrax]

Cost is not the only downside.
Windage gets mentioned, perhaps it is an overstated argument as dodgers, sprayhood, solar panels, dinghies on davits, etc, seem to be perfectly acceptable. All of these things tend to easily removable though, for whatever reason (survival storm, winter afloat, racing).
Another practical issue is that a wheelhouse can be very hard to see over/past/through when you are at the helm.
Not everybody wants to ruin their cockpit ergonomics in order to allow them to sail in rubbish weather, in which they probably don't want to sail anyway.

You make very valid points.

I made an earlier point where I stated that we were travellers by water as opposed to purist sailors. This means we go to sea in safe conditions for the boat and crew, but the crew are not affected by wet and cold and having to wear heavy clothing.

We had a very experienced delivery crew-a member of our sailing club-assist with our delivery trip in early May last year from Gloucester Docks to Gosport. He was a bit sniffy at the big fat tub with a small rig.

At 2AM rounding Lands End in torrential rain wearing shorts and a tee shirt he was getting used to the benifits of the huge pilot house and windscreen wipers.

Of course a boat like ours is not for everyone. Both First Mate and I are starting to struggle with mobility. Getting off and on our previous aft cockpit yacht was becoming a chore and was spoiling our enjoyment of cruising. This boat will keep us on the water for a few more years!

The steering position is inside only and, even as shorthouses, FM and I have more than acceptable visibility from the steering position. Windage, as you suggest, is high, but with the bowthruster no serious dramas yet. Cock ups, oh yes! but not down exclusivly to windage.

Coming alongside I will have rigged the fenders and warps, FM will have slid open the side window and I call her in using the old canalboat method "Steer out"-away from the towpath/pontoon and "Steer in" for the opposite. It works for us, especially if we can come in Port side to and use the propwalk.

As I said in a previous post, it took two years and we viewed over twenty vessels before going back to our first choice, the SP Cruiser. We excluded it on cost, but what the hell, you cant take it with you, so we blued far more dosh than some said was prudent, but so far with no regrets.

 

[Arcady]

Windage gets mentioned, perhaps it is an overstated argument as dodgers, sprayhood, solar panels, dinghies on davits, etc, seem to be perfectly acceptable.

Agreed - the windage argument IMHO is overstated for exactly the reasons you cite. Docking in particular is often trickier in an AWB with deep fin as the bow will blow off much more quickly than a motorsailer, which is often a longer keel &/or heavier displacement.

Another practical issue is that a wheelhouse can be very hard to see over/past/through when you are at the helm.

Yes - it depends on the boat. Our last three boats were all motor sailers and of these the Fisher 25 was by far the worst. Despite being able to ship a tiller on the rudder head, it was very difficult to see past the wheelhouse. Our last boat - a Cabo Rico NE400 - required one to look through the wheelhouse: this was absolutely fine and no worse than peering through a dodger with fixed glass windscreen. The current boat is a Fjord MS33 with a wheelhouse low enough to see over comfortably. It's probably my favourite configuration of all three.

Not everybody wants to ruin their cockpit ergonomics in order to allow them to sail in rubbish weather, in which they probably don't want to sail anyway.

Not so - having a pilothouse arguably enhances the ergonomics in many ways. It provides great shelter for sitting out of the wind, it provides nice solid hand-rails at a convenient height when moving forwards on deck and the pilothouse top provides and ideal location for solar panels and other equipment. What's not to like??

 

[Kelpie]

SWMBO and I are both under 5'5" which perhaps explains my aversion to wheelhouses. We regularly drop the sprayhood, despite it being almost brand new with perfectly clear windows, unles going upwind in a chop, or against a cold headwind.

Good thing boats are all different, just like people.

 

[Lucky Duck]

In just under three seasons of ownership the spray has only been deployed once during torrential rain in St Peter Port.

Rest of the time it is packed away under its cover

 

[Barbican]

Southerlies...same story I think...although in their case, the deckhouse roof was always a bit too recessed to offer a good view...but the later ones made almost no pretence at all.

:

Very true, and interesting that the latest Southerly 480 has a raised superstructure thus deeper windows and nav table/seat to address customer requests/feedback, seems it is a popular choice when viewed alongside the previous approach....

 

[rotrax]

Not so - having a pilothouse arguably enhances the ergonomics in many ways. It provides great shelter for sitting out of the wind, it provides nice solid hand-rails at a convenient height when moving forwards on deck and the pilothouse top provides and ideal location for solar panels and other equipment. What's not to like??

Our pilot house is the ideal place to store the fully inflated SunSport 2.4 dinghy! It fits across the roof, upside down, just in front of the Mainsheet and behind the pilothouse hatch.

Perfik! as Pop Larkin would say........................

 

[E39mad]

Yes - it depends on the boat. Our last three boats were all motor sailers and of these the Fisher 25 was by far the worst. Despite being able to ship a tiller on the rudder head, it was very difficult to see past the wheelhouse. Our last boat - a Cabo Rico NE400 - required one to look through the wheelhouse: this was absolutely fine and no worse than peering through a dodger with fixed glass windscreen. The current boat is a Fjord MS33 with a wheelhouse low enough to see over comfortably. It's probably my favourite configuration of all three.

There is a difference here also in that some boats like the Fisher have the primary steering position within the wheelhouse whereas boats such as Fjord & Southerlies have the primary steering position in the cockpit.

 

[Arcady]

There is a difference here also in that some boats like the Fisher have the primary steering position within the wheelhouse whereas boats such as Fjord & Southerlies have the primary steering position in the cockpit.

Agreed. That's probably the single biggest distinguishing characteristic between 'Motor Sailer' and 'Pilothouse Yacht'

 

[braehouse]

We faced a similar dilemma a few years ago. Our Hallberg 37 was a lovely yacht to own and sail but my wife found it very difficult to be below even going to the heads without feeling queasy. Friends had a Nauticat 42 which we sailed in company with and we could apperciate the dech saloon layout. Whilst the Nauticat was alovely boat we did not like the the high helming position or the change in deck levels. We decided to sell the Hallberg and look for a deck saloon that had a centre cockpit, nice aft cabin and the ability to see out whilst underway and in port. The Waquiez was on our short list but coming from the quality of the fit and finish on the Hallberg whilst it was good it did not quite do it for us. In the end we went for something a bit different and found a lovely Sunbeam 42 DS. This ticked all our boxes, sails well, has a strong engine for when we are invariably motor sailing and is sea kindly. If you can find one it would be worth taking a look.

 

[rotrax]

We did, Scarce boats, and very nice.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

Not everybody wants to ruin their cockpit ergonomics in order to allow them to sail in rubbish weather, in which they probably don't want to sail anyway.

Well its alright if you want to just bob around the buoys or pop over to the next harbour but longer coastal cruising such as down to the Scillies, over to Ireland or France - or even in my case just traversing the Bristol channel - means 3 to 4 days outbound and a return beyond the reliable range of forecasts which are guesswork much beyond 3 days.

Of course if I was millionaire I could just hole up in port and fly home, but my pilot house keeps the navigator very happy in rainy squalls as we slog for home. It actually gives much better forward viewing than a sprayhood and not many sprayhoods have windscreen wipers.

A boat is for going somewhere.

 

[Kelpie]

Well its alright if you want to just bob around the buoys or pop over to the next harbour but longer coastal cruising such as down to the Scillies, over to Ireland or France - or even in my case just traversing the Bristol channel - means 3 to 4 days outbound and a return beyond the reliable range of forecasts which are guesswork much beyond 3 days.

Of course if I was millionaire I could just hole up in port and fly home, but my pilot house keeps the navigator very happy in rainy squalls as we slog for home. It actually gives much better forward viewing than a sprayhood and not many sprayhoods have windscreen wipers.

A boat is for going somewhere.

I've cruised from half way down the West coast of Ireland, throughout the west coast of Scotland, and up to Orkney. Never had to do more than 48hrs on passage. Forecasts give reliable windows of three or four days so we know when horrible weather is coming, and we sit it out.
I'm sure a pilothouse comes into its own when the weather turns, but we usually manage to a avoid being out on those kind of days anyway.
On the occasions when we've been caught out, we tend to retreat down below and let the wind vane carry on.

But it's each to their own. Just trying to give a suggestions as to why pilothouse yachts are not the norm.

 

[Greenheart]

In advance of cycling home tonight, I put on waterproof over-trousers, a light, comfortable waterproof jacket, warm gloves and scarf, even cycling goggles...

...and it was still filthy weather, and I hated it. And it's only early November!

Three weekends back I had my first try at solo-trapezing the Osprey. October is my favourite sailing month, it is so underrated. It was a warm force 2-3 and nothing could beat the physical involvement of being outdoors in a fine, rewarding performance sailing boat...

...so...will I buy a yacht, designed to satisfy those same instincts? No, I will not. Pity, because there are thousands for sale out there, attractive little cruisers, very nice on fine summer days...

...and miserable, in weather like today's. I would never sail the dinghy in the cold rain and wind; so I can't see the point in upgrading to a yacht whose designer gave her a cabin, but left the damn helm nearly as exposed as the dinghy's.

Sure, I will sometimes miss the weatherliness and responsiveness of purer-lined boats, as I shelter in the heated wheelhouse...but nothing is preventing me keeping the Osprey and spreading her wings whenever the weather's fine...

...but on the other 300 days per year, I'll want a boat which is comfortable anyway - same as I wish I had driven today, not ridden the bike. Outdoor activities are only as good as the weather you do them in. For our miserable winters and disappointing summers, a wheelhouse is a far better purchase.

Of course, I'm not suggesting anybody else should agree with me - there are too few wheelhouse boats out there!

 

[NormanS]

In advance of cycling home tonight, I put on waterproof over-trousers, a light, comfortable waterproof jacket, warm gloves and scarf, even cycling goggles...

...and it was still filthy weather, and I hated it. And it's only early November!

Three weekends back I had my first try at solo-trapezing the Osprey. October is my favourite sailing month, it is so underrated. It was a warm force 2-3 and nothing could beat the physical involvement of being outdoors in a fine, rewarding performance sailing boat...

...so...will I buy a yacht, designed to satisfy those same instincts? No, I will not. Pity, because there are thousands for sale out there, attractive little cruisers, very nice on fine summer days...

...and miserable, in weather like today's. I would never sail the dinghy in the cold rain and wind; so I can't see the point in upgrading to a yacht whose designer gave her a cabin, but left the damn helm nearly as exposed as the dinghy's.

Sure, I will sometimes miss the weatherliness and responsiveness of purer-lined boats, as I shelter in the heated wheelhouse...but nothing is preventing me keeping the Osprey and spreading her wings whenever the weather's fine...

...but on the other 300 days per year, I'll want a boat which is comfortable anyway - same as I wish I had driven today, not ridden the bike. Outdoor activities are only as good as the weather you do them in. For our miserable winters and disappointing summers, a wheelhouse is a far better purchase.

Of course, I'm not suggesting anybody else should agree with me - there are too few wheelhouse boats out there!

There's a lot of sense in what you say, which is why I have a deck saloon, (and a bike).

 

[RupertW]

There's a lot of sense in what you say, which is why I have a deck saloon, (and a bike).

And I loved the quote that outdoor activities are only as good as the weather you do them in, which is why we changed the weather not the yacht type and now keep our boat a plane ride away. It's cheaper than a train and easier than driving to a UK coast.

But I still dress up in warm clothes and enjoy a winter walk in the Lake District anytime I can.