Help - is pilothouse yacht right for me?

[Concerto]

I mentioned the Moody Eclipse range, but you seem to be considering new yachts as well. Then the current Moody DS range might be suitable. https://www.yachts.group/moody/gb/boats/moody-ac41.html

 

[Tranona]

There is a basic difference between Pilot House, and Deck Saloon yachts, and it is not just semantics. I have a Deck Saloon, and although it is theoretically possible to sail from inside, I don't, but in bad weather I will motor from inside. All controls and instruments are duplicated.
The real difference for me is when we are anchored. Instead of being down below in a saloon, and not being able to see, we are in a comfotable deck saloon, not just a wheelhouse, where we can see what's happening around us.

There was a long thread on this subject here a couple of years ago. The terms used do not have a clear definition and tend to be used in different ways by different people depending on the impression they want to give about the boat. Mongrel versions and mixing the terms are also common as the example of the "Pilot Saloon" illustrates. Similarly the "Deck Saloons" such as the various Jeanneaus are mostly yachts with high rooflines and slightly raised seating but no attempt to provide facilities for sailing from inside.

So, don't get hung up on the terms. Determine the features you want and use that to compare boats, ignoring what term is used by the designer/builder to describe the boat.

As a matter of interest the historic origin of the term "Deck Saloon" is from the first half of the 20th century when boats were big enough to have 2 saloons, one below and one on top of the weather deck for the owners and guests to enjoy the view while staying dry. Nothing so vulgar as steering the boat from this location! In the same vein " Pilot House" is just another name for a wheelhouse and conjoures up vision of gritty mariners out in all weather so needing to steer from inside.

 

[RupertW]

Or you could go one further and move your sailing to a warm climate such as Greece or Turkey. We have done this and left our heavy oilskins and gloves back at home. My wife is proud of her sunburnt knees, I no longer suffer agonies with frozen fingers. And costs (in Turkey) are far less than South Coast UK.

My wife has reynauds plus some nerve and circulation problems so we did this 7 years ago. Neither of us regret the decades of UK sailing and the great memories but we have made so many new ones sailing in Italy, Croatia and Greece in open cockpit, sunshine and the gusty Med weather and she can keep warm even in night sails as 20 degrees is still ok if well wrapped up.

 

[Sybarite]

Arcardy of this forum has a Fjord MS33 like this, I hope the link works.

http://yachts.apolloduck.co.uk/boat.phtml?id=531517

On the outside these are beautiful boats. I even drove to Italy to look at one. However I found its interior completely impractical for cruising. Little storage space, not easy to sit and look out (seats too low) etc.

OTOH the Tayana 37 PH looks a lot like it but has much more room and comfort.

https://www.google.fr/search?q=Taya...sAQIRw&biw=1920&bih=949#imgrc=s-32IQTLBe1F6M:

 

[westhinder]

A few points:
First, there are a number of boats that are presented as deck saloons that are not real deck saloons. Go and sit down in the saloon and check you can see outside when sitting down.
Second, check that there is a comfortable sitting position on either tack.
Third, you say that you are not interested in an inside steering position. That may well be the case now, but I predict you will soon see the attraction of steering from inside. I crossed the Atlantic to Halifax in a boat with a deck house and I can tell you that we did all the watches from inside. As your cruising area is the west coast of Scotland, an inside steering position is a great asset, even if it just a remote control for the autopilot and a plotter/MFD.. If ever I will be in the market for another boat after my Starlight, a deck saloon will be a very serious option indeed.
Finally, I agree with the suggestion that you will find more good deck saloon boats in Scandinavia. One name I haven't seen mentioned so far is Nordship from Denmark. I have only been on one, a 40, but a good example of what can be done without sacrificing all the fun of sailing.

 

[Otter]

When we bought a wheelhouse yacht - because we have young children - it coincided with an extraordinary improvement in the British weather, that first summer was warmer and much drier and the winter had none of the harsh biting wind of previous years. Strangely the weather has remained consistently good these last six years. I gather that owners of good deck saloon yachts with twin steering positions have reported a similar phenomenon.

 

[r_h]

...As other replies have observed, I do like a good sailing boat but am obviously willing to sacrifice this to find a boat she will be more comfortable in

It's worth considering some of the more recent French designs from the lines of RM and Pogo.
While these are not pilothouse/deck saloon designs as such, the coachroof is shaped so that the windows provide an all-round view out while sailing.
Some models also have a seat each side near the companionway that's intended either for getting short naps, or for keeping warm and dry in inclement weather.
Probably the biggest downside is they tend to be expensive relative to overall length and there are not so many on the second hand market.
This is the RM970: http://www.rm-yachts.com/en/rm-970

 

[Arcady]

A few points:

Third, you say that you are not interested in an inside steering position. That may well be the case now, but I predict you will soon see the attraction of steering from inside.

Precisely so! I have often thought that helming, or simply standing a watch, outside in bad weather is analogous to driving a convertible through a thunderstorm with the roof down. Why would you do it if you have a choice of not having to? Keeping warm and dry tends to encourage much better decision making too.

Sybarite - your comments about the Fjord MS33 have some justification: however, there is a big difference in the internal volume between 37' LOD and 33" LOD. I know this as our last boat was 37' on deck and I miss the stowage space enormously!

 

[PaulRainbow]

A Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 40DS and 43DS from early 2000's might fit the bill. Good allround vis from the saloon, much like a mobo. Reported to sail well and can be steered from the saloon via a autopilot control head, which is how the later Southerlies did it.

 

[rotrax]

First Mate and I looked long and hard-two years, perhaps twenty boats in four countries-before buying the current boat.

We loved the Warquiez Pilot House, but hated the access to the cockpit and then into the accomadation. This might not be important for some, but she might have to have a hip done soon and my knees are shot. Several others had the same issue.

The Dehler was nice, the Jeaneaus were not true deck salon vessels. The Nauticats-the ones we could afford were dark and old fashioned.

Sailing performance was-and is-not an issue. We are travellers by water and not purist sailors.

Since owning Jarrow Lily our oilies and seaboots have only been used in anger once, when berthing in Chichester Marina in a downpour.

Our Island Packet SP Cruiser is a slow, poor to windward plodder.

But is really good alongside or on the hook, which for us is far more important.

 

[Sybarite]

First Mate and I looked long and hard-two years, perhaps twenty boats in four countries-before buying the current boat.

We loved the Warquiez Pilot House, but hated the access to the cockpit and then into the accomadation. This might not be important for some, but she might have to have a hip done soon and my knees are shot. Several others had the same issue.

The Dehler was nice, the Jeaneaus were not true deck salon vessels. The Nauticats-the ones we could afford were dark and old fashioned.

Sailing performance was-and is-not an issue. We are travellers by water and not purist sailors.

Since owning Jarrow Lily our oilies and seaboots have only been used in anger once, when berthing in Chichester Marina in a downpour.

Our Island Packet SP Cruiser is a slow, poor to windward plodder.

But is really good alongside or on the hook, which for us is far more important.

This one looks right up your street too :

http://www.voilesetvoiliers.com/cha...marthe-46-voilier-exploration-joubert-nivelt/

Some quotes

We also design a lot of motor boats and we don't understand why the cockpits in sailing boats have to be so incredibly uncomfortable compared with motor boats.

When we are inside I do not want to go down to some hellish cellar where I cant see out. No matter what mode of transport one uses, except for sailing boats, you have a view outside.

The surface area of the sails is modest compared with modern boats but corresponds to what was being designed in the 80's. When you head off in one of these types of boats it's probably a case of sailing a few thousand miles and you don't want to have to be bothered having to reef and unreef all the time.

The aluminium plating is 12mm whereas a boat of this size would normally have 4mm. So you have no worries about being in ice strewn waters.

The owner stipulated a removeable stay. I wouldn't have bothered because as everybody knows the engine is the fallback solution and there is a powerful 135hp on this. Also it is important to have oversize ground tackle. You need to have absolute faith in your holding.

 

[rotrax]

You are right, just the concept we like.

Last year we did 1500NM, this year 1800. We were aboard 19 and 21 weeks respectivley.

Our passage planning speed has gone from 5 KTS with our previous aft cockpit Island Packet yacht to 6.5 KTS with the SP Cruiser. This is due to the big engine. On inspecting the previous 6 years logsheets we found that because we travel as opposed to just going sailing we were motorsailing a great deal. Sods Law means the wind is either too much, not enough or in the wrong direction!

We do the same with the new boat but at substantially higher speeds. Just having full sail up and the engine on idle in ahead gives a substantially better angle on the wind. 1700 RPM and full sail on the beam even against a 1 knot tide allows 7 KTS in flattish water. Fuel consumption is more than acceptable.

Also agree with the comment re ground tackle-I have just purchased another bow roller to double up our anchoring potential. I already have in stock a 20 kilo genuine Bruce with chain and warp as well as a fortress for the stern.

You have pointed out a fabulous boat, and I like the idea of aluminium very much.

Jarrow Lily suits us for now though-she is paid for and was the best compromise for our requirements at the price we could pay.

 

[noelex]

For anyone interested in pilothouse yachts have a look at the Bestevaer range.

Here is a link to one we are having built:

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?482505-Bestevaer-49

 

[Sgeir]

Choice of boat is a very personal thing and, as with everything else in sailing, it will be a compromise between sailing efficiency, comfort and cost.

We've sailed a deck saloon for the last couple of seasons, about 1,200NM each year.

On the downside, I don't feel that she sails as well as out previous one - not so close to wind and definitely more sluggish - both yachts share the same 10m LOA, but the deck saloon is heavier with a long keel, as against the long fin on the old boat.

On the plus side for us (we're both in our late 60s), the comfort level is extraordinary compared to our rather Spartan past. We have a well designed double berth amidships, and the raised deck saloon makes our northern evenings so much more pleasant, particularly during the chillier earlier and later times of the sailing season. After a day's sailing, it is wonderful being able to prepare and eat a meal and enjoy great views of the setting sun while sitting in the comfort of a warm cabin. On our old yacht, we had to stand up to look out the portlights, and going below for the evening very often felt being shut in, particularly in poor weather.

One thing to look out for is that some deck saloons that we have seen have the seating positions either down below amidships, or in seating positions that are too low down to see out without standing up, which, for us, rather undermines its great advantage.

It is possible to steer from inside using the autohelm, but it's not something that we'd normally do, although it does (illogically perhaps?) reduce the stress level when caught in serious lightning conditions.

A raised deck saloon might be a good option for you both. Despite being a bit slower than we were used to, we are very pleased with her and have no regrets.

Just a final thought. I have never suffered from seasickness, but, in our previous boat, I'd occasionally become a bit queasy and hot while going below and doing stuff at the chart desk in lumpy conditions. Never had a similar issue in the deck saloon - being able to see the horizon probably helps.

 

[doug748]

A Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 40DS and 43DS from early 2000's might fit the bill. Good allround vis from the saloon, much like a mobo. Reported to sail well and can be steered from the saloon via a autopilot control head, which is how the later Southerlies did it.

One of the more attractive contemporary boats as well.

We have a catholic selection from a Fjord to a Pogo. I would favour a Southerly, but that's just me.

Pete Goss has just got himself a Garcia:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBenIecZ24g&t=3s

 

[dunedin]

A deck saloon boat need not be a slow boat, long keeler or one that can’t make efficient speed to windward under sail (for those of us who hate motor sailing)
The Wauquiez are one with good sailing qualities, this is another if budget stretches
http://www.parkstonebayyachts.com/boats-for-sale/view/Nordship-430DS-2012-for-sale-poole-6382066

 

[oldmanofthehills]

The answer is yes get a pilot house boat or similar. I am ageing as is my beloved navigator and we have made a semi pilot house to replace our decrepit sprayhood and it works wonders in bad weather. The off watch can stand in companionway in the dry and look out clearly forward for crabpots or ships, and long passages on blustery rainy days are much nicer. Yes a plot house increases windage going to windward but not that much and by heck proper shelter is nice.
We intent to get a proper pilothouse boat when we can, my choice would be Colvic Watson 30 if I could afford it (which I may not). LM30 or 32 not bad (LM28 perhaps a bit small) though they have some design issues and there are many others on the market.

 

[Greenheart]

I reckon it's probably important to recognise how much you'll lose and gain, before changing from a conventional low-coachroof, open-cockpit yacht. Sleeker pilot-house designs look to me like they're hoping to tempt folk who want the best of both worlds, but I doubt the usability of a low-profile deck-saloon.

I used to dream about the old Nauticat 52 with its big wheelhouse. Finally I stepped aboard one, but it was a late model and its sleeker lines don't offer the same height and visibility. I say that without having been aboard the old model...but I'm confident its towering superstructure and steep windscreens made it better to helm from, than the current one.

Southerlies...same story I think...although in their case, the deckhouse roof was always a bit too recessed to offer a good view...but the later ones made almost no pretence at all.

The designer's ineradicable urge to make even a motor-sailer sail better, progressively erodes these boats' versatility for other purposes. Design gets sleeker, the sunny brochure pics get slicker, but I sincerely doubt the boats are better to be aboard, in the kinds of weather that made buyers retain the option to spend watches out of the wind and rain.

I like sailing too much to be purely happy about buying a boat whose design translates to slow, unrewarding performance...but equally, I like being afloat too much to buy a yacht I won't want to use at all, five months per year. I don't think anyone's building a proper motor-sailer today, because all the designers felt they had to appeal to sailors' climatic optimism, rather than their shrewd knowledge of our disappointing climate. Old-school motor-sailers mostly are old, now, but their unfashionability is a virtue in the UK.

Only one solution...buy two very different boats rather than one which neither rewards nor cossets her crew. Where can I find a Fisher 25 and a Hunter F1, for Centaur money?

 

[Sybarite]

we found that because we travel as opposed to just going sailing we were motorsailing a great deal. Sods Law means the wind is either too much, not enough or in the wrong direction!

That was my story this summer on the trip to Cherbourg and back.

 

[Sybarite]

Choice of boat is a very personal thing and, as with everything else in sailing, it will be a compromise between sailing efficiency, comfort and cost.

We've sailed a deck saloon for the last couple of seasons, about 1,200NM each year.

On the downside, I don't feel that she sails as well as out previous one - not so close to wind and definitely more sluggish - both yachts share the same 10m LOA, but the deck saloon is heavier with a long keel, as against the long fin on the old boat.

On the plus side for us (we're both in our late 60s), the comfort level is extraordinary compared to our rather Spartan past. We have a well designed double berth amidships, and the raised deck saloon makes our northern evenings so much more pleasant, particularly during the chillier earlier and later times of the sailing season. After a day's sailing, it is wonderful being able to prepare and eat a meal and enjoy great views of the setting sun while sitting in the comfort of a warm cabin. On our old yacht, we had to stand up to look out the portlights, and going below for the evening very often felt being shut in, particularly in poor weather.

One thing to look out for is that some deck saloons that we have seen have the seating positions either down below amidships, or in seating positions that are too low down to see out without standing up, which, for us, rather undermines its great advantage.

It is possible to steer from inside using the autohelm, but it's not something that we'd normally do, although it does (illogically perhaps?) reduce the stress level when caught in serious lightning conditions.

A raised deck saloon might be a good option for you both. Despite being a bit slower than we were used to, we are very pleased with her and have no regrets.

Just a final thought. I have never suffered from seasickness, but, in our previous boat, I'd occasionally become a bit queasy and hot while going below and doing stuff at the chart desk in lumpy conditions. Never had a similar issue in the deck saloon - being able to see the horizon probably helps.

The seasickness element was mentionned to me by a friend who had an Amel Sharki. He felt that the fact that there was an open dog house where the air circulated was a positive influence.