Help installing heads please!!!

[johnkeith]

Putting new heads into my boat and looking for tips on fitting the outlet hose to the seacock. So far I've spent about four fruitless hours trying to do this job. I've tried putting the pipe into boiling water and also hammering a softwood plug into the pipe to widen it. Also tried putting washing-up liquid in pipe and on seacock to ease the thing on. So far nothing has worked. The piping has the following writing on it ' KD- Trident VAC XHD SANITATION and POTABLE WATER' is a more flexible type of hose available which will stretch more?
The seacock has a c.5mm lip on it which adds to the difficulty of getting the hose on - should I consider unscrewing the end fitting and replacing with a fitting which dosen't have a lip, if such things are available. I'm a bit worried about this option as the throughhull part of the seacock has not been fitted with a proper wooden backing plate and therefore there is the possibility of damaging the seal at the hull.
Help please!!!

John /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

[RivalRedwing]

It does sound a little like the fitting is the wrong size for the pipe, at least at the lip. I did this job recently and some near boiling water + a bit of jointing compund did the job a treat (but you probably didn't want to hear that)

 

[jonathankent]

I would tend to agree with Moonfire with this one.... I also managed to get mine on with a bit of soap within a couple of minutes. The water inlet 3/4" stuff is the real pain... that one has no flexibility in it.

Is the boat in or out of the water? If out, I wouldn't worry about breaking the seal to the hull. You could then re-bed the whole seacock and fit a backing plate.

 

[stephenh]

Is the seacock metal?
If it is then try heating it with e.g. a hairdryer. If you don't then it acts as a heat sink and cools the hose before you have time to fit it.
Washing up liquid in the water helps as does a thick pair of gloves !!
Leave the pipe in the hot water for some time as plastic takes a long time to conduct heat.

 

[Poignard]

Immerse the end of the pipe in a container of hot oil. This is one of the tips in the useful Boat Owner's Sketch Book series [published by PBO].

I've never needed to try it because boiling water has always worked for me, so you can't blame me if it goes horribly wrong! Seriously, the oil will reach a higher temperature than boiling water, so will do a better job of softening the pipe evenly.

Please let us know if it works when you come out of the Burns Unit!

 

[boatbuilder]

Hot air gun and vasaline, heat up the pipe and put vasaline on the fitting. Get the pipe hot enough that it is floppy and then push it on. Now is the important bit, support the pipe untill it cools , otherwise it will collapse. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Hermit]

KY jelly is (allegedly) quite good for this...

 

[savageseadog]

Offer the end up to the fitting (well soaped or whatever) make sure the cock is closed and have someone hold the end up in the air and pour very hot water in, push like hell. As someone said earlier, the brass if cool, will harden the hose as you push it on. This way there is plenty of hot water in contact with everything.

 

[roger]

If you really get desparate you could try removing the lip with a file. It's not a nice job but perfectly possible. Get a nice sharp fairly fine new file with a handle; work slowly and constantly check for a nice roundish even exterior. Finish off with fine wet and dry paper.
Sometimes the heated hose misbehaves and part goes inside the fitting. In that case a wooden lolly stick can be helpful.
It is of course quite probable that you can't see what you are doing in a confined space with lousy light.

 

[RivalRedwing]

Just a quick follow up - does the boat originate overseas? is there a metric vs imperial clash? others can probably offer further advice from their experiences

 

[HeadMistress]

[ QUOTE ]
Hot air gun and vasaline, heat up the pipe and put vasaline on the fitting. Get the pipe hot enough that it is floppy and then push it on. Now is the important bit, support the pipe untill it cools , otherwise it will collapse. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

If he does that, within several months he'll be back asking why almond-shaped holes have appeared in the hose all over the fitting. It's because the hose was overheated and then stretched beyond its tensile strength.

The fitting is obviously larger than the inner diameter of the hose. Replace it with one that's the right size, without a flange, and the hose should go onto it relatively easily if it's warmed a bit and lubricated with dish soap or K-Y...but NOT Vaseline or any other petroleum product. Petroleum is destructive to rubber.

 

[ShipsWoofy]

If possible, you did not mention the sea-cock type, but most of the standard through-hull types are in 3 pieces. I am not familiar with blakes types.

The through hull - The cock - and a hose connector piece.

It may be an idea to unscrew the hose connector piece and take it home to use your vice and big 'ammer to get it home into the pipe. Or, take the hose connector off and throw away, replacing with one of the correct size, or vica-versa. Does the hose fit the toilet?

Don't forget the statutory 11 jubilee clips to make sure the hose can't come undone /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[boatmike]

You beat me to it Peggy. I have always found that boiling water in a jug of some kind is almost too hot. Heating it more than this will cause problems later. If it won't go on with hot water alone a little washing up liquid is OK but no other lubricant should be used especially not oil or vaseline. The trick is to work quickly as the pipe will cool on contact with the fitting. If the fitting is the wrong size change the fitting. (or the pipe) If you manage to get a small pipe on an oversize fitting you will damage it anyway. Check the OD of the fitting and the bore of the pipe. if the pipe is more than 1 mm smaller than the fitting when cold there is something wrong.

 

[samwise]

Having struggled with the snakes wedding of pipes needed to fit a Lavac and holding tank on our boat, I feel I may qualify as a bit experienced in these matters. The only thing that worked for me was a hot air gun ( the Bosch gun on setting number one) plus washing up liquid and the tapered softwood plugs trick. If you heat the pipe too much and it goes really soft you have destroyed the integrity of the pipe. You may get it on, but long term durability has been compromised. You may have to go through the heat / stretch / cool process a few times before you have enough diameter to make it fit. Do remember to slip the clips on the pipe , otherwise you have to take it off again, which is often more difficult than getting it on. The lip on the fitting sounds a bit of a pain, I guess you could file it off, but you have to ask why it was there in the first place. I would be a bit worried about the lack of a backing plate on the seacock and it would probably worth considering remedying the situation if the boat is out of the water, or at next haul out.

 

[samwise]

Blakes type do not have a separate pipe connector. The body is all in one piece.

 

[HeadMistress]

Plan B (and likely to be the easiest solution): A short section of the right size hose to fit the thru-hull and a male-male adapter to connect it to the toilet discharge hose.

And while we're on the subject of over-heating hoses... Never heat a hose to make it bend tighter than it wants to bend willingly. That will weaken the hose, causing the inside of the to collapse and kink, and stretch the outside of the bend, resulting in tears in the hose skin. Instead, break the hose and insert an inline radius fitting. Dometic/SeaLand has a full line of inline fittings: http://www.sealandtechnology.com/productpages.asp?pid=66 Scroll to the bottom of the page to see the illustrations.

 

[Boathook]

The others have answered about the hose but only a few have mentioned about the lack of a suitable backing pad. This concerns me having had a hull fixing fail due to lack of this pad.

 

[rob1901]

After all that information on putting the hose in hot oil/hot water soap etc etc, don't forget to slide the jubilee clip on first.

 

[serendib50]

Heads I loose ! Re: Help installing heads please!!!

Before I throw my noisy Jabsco electric heads conversion in the skip. Wonder if Peggy or others out there are any pearls of wisdom.

The installation is a standard Jabsco unit fitted at about w/l level that pumps to a holding tank that is above the waterline and is located in the locker just aft of the head

A picture of the OEM fitting is at: http://www.jeanneau-owners2.com/id172.htm

I have copied this installation with a Vetus plastic tank of similar dimensions. IE there is no 3 way valve so the waste always discharges via the tank

The installation worked sort of OK with the manual pump , but because of no macerator lead to occasional blockages on the discharge side, hence fitting the electic conversion to stop the blockage problem.

No more blockages, and we could live with the noise - just -but now get unpleasant "recycling" of waste into the bowl even when the outlet seacock is closed.

The manual refers to this potential problem and suggests increasing the length of the inlet hose between the bowl and the pump, which I have tried with no real improvement

Is there anything I can I do? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Thanks

Malcolm

 

[HeadMistress]

Heads I loose ! Re: Help installing heads please!!!

I can't see how the pump could recycle waste thorugh the intake unless the bowl is full to the rim...'cuz water can only get into the bowl via the channel in the rim of the bowl. So I can't see what the length of the inlet hose between the pump and the bowl could have to do with it. Unless you're actually seeing "recycled" bowl contents running down from the rim, that's not the cause of your problem.

The two most likely possibilities...

1. Blocked tank vent. When the vent is blocked, air in the tank displaced by incoming waste has no way to escape...the tank becomes pressurized, creating backpressure that pushes bowl contents back into the bowl. It can even do worse than that--a burst tank or an eruption in the toilet. The two most likely places for a vent blockage are the vent thru-hull and the connection to the tank--both the fitting and that end of the hose. If your

2. Low voltage to the toilet. If the motor sounds like it's struggling, that's the most likely possibility. Electric toilets need to be on their own separate dedicated circuit, shared by nothing else--not even cabin lights--that can pull power away from the toilet if it's on at the same time. So if you didn't run a new circuit for it, you should have. Or, your battery may just be dying. Put a volt meter on the toilet and check the voltage while flushing...if it's less than a full 12v, the toilet isn't getting enough.

Or...there may be enough sea water mineral buildup in your head discharge line to reduce the diameter enough to restrict flow through it (which could also very account for your blockages when your toilet was a manual model). Jabsco's standard discharge is only 1" vs 1.5" for most other toilets...so it wouldn't take much buildup in it to cause problems. Remove the hose from the toilet and take a look. If you see a lot of buildup, a 12% solution of hydrochloric acid ("brick cleaner" from any hardware store) will dissolve it. A weekly dose of about a cupful (100 ml)--no more, it'll just be wasted--of undiluted distilled white vinegar flushed down the toilet will prevent it in the future.

If none of the above, we'll just have to keep looking till we find the cause.

Btw...what model is your Jabsco?