helm dash design Qs

[vas]

too cold to work, not in the mood to do real work, so time to ask...

planning to redo the dash since when the detroids were replaced the owner opted for constructing a plywood box, upholster it (awfully) with black vinyl and bolt it behind the original instruments which are left there intact (some instruments still light up with the right toggle switch on the console...)
The mess currrently looks like that.

Plan is to take a 2 to 3mm alloy sheet, lasercut the right holes upholster it again with black vinyl (no padding needed me thinks) and transfer the instruments from the original panel to the new one. Then fit it at the far end of the dash space (some 1m from your eyes when seated) and leave the space close by for chart plotter and autopilot control. Will come up with a section with the appropriate angles on Monday.

Assuming this makes sense and there are no function/experience related objections from the panel, got a few Qs:

A. do I REALLY need a tachometer (whatever you call the thing that occasionaly displays a very approximate speed over water) I have one (you know the one with the fancy wheel that blocks and stops working every fortnight or so...) that has been generally unreliable, displays wrong speed (always less by a couple of knots...) and is a big ugly bugger on square dial that wont fit nicely with the rest (OK, I admit that's my main concern ). Can I get rid of it (and block one more hole below waterline, or is there any benefit of getting a new/repairing the existing/whatever??

B. planning to fit two boost pressure gauges, don't ask I like to see 1.5-2bar constant pressure, back from petrolhead days Anyone has any idea where I'm going to get something that matches? Anyone knows what brand my instruments are? could be veglia but they don't say (ok haven't dismantled one to see what's inside)

C. much point fitting two pyrometers or shall I skip on them? Doubt I'd get a design that fits the rest on that tbh.

anything else I could/should fit? (I'm talking reasonable cost things, no multithou bits of kit)


Before anyone asks, f/b controls are plain revcounter/temp/oilpress (iirc) and not planning to add anything there (me thinks) Not planning any transatlantic trips and since I wont have the time to redo the f/b I'll be mainly helming from the cool and shadow of the lower helm for this summer...

cheers

V.

 

[capsco]

Instruments look like VDO to me.

 

[Spi D]

VDO Ocean Line.

If not the very same they are close enough and offers a quite complete range at fair(ish) prices.

I'd start by marking all wires and take some pictures. One things are disconnected it tends to become quite messy. I would make the dash from a non-metal material to avoid electrical issues. Afterall it is a lot of wires and connectors and you don't want fuses blowing or sparks flying when something hits.. and the visible surface can be made nice with any selfadhesive vinyl, carbonfiber, alu, fake-wood or whatever you like (as in some cars).

Keeping the engines' boards as is sounds smart. The speedometer (or odometer - tacho is a rev counter), can be spared if you have other means of measuring speed (GPS). The through hull fitting may be plugged, some of the brands even supply the plug with the instrument to fit when you retract the sender for service.

Boost gauge and pyrometer are nice and might give you an early waring if something starts to go wrong. May be hard to fit 2x2 instruments into the dash layout, though.

 

[vas]

thanks for the pointers and opinions,

yep, googled vdo ocean line, and that must be what I have or as you say they are very very close!
Pitty that the mech boost gauge is around 50quid and the identical (with slightly angular top ring and red needle for cars (again VDO again mechanical) can be found at 25quid... Pyrometers are more expensive (around 150quid each and not sure sensors are included)

Will measure exact size of the panel and check how many gauges will fit (scrapping the speedometer!) ergonomically in there and will decide.

@ Spi D:
I see in the photo you attach that the engine gauges are closer to helm and navigation further back. Isn't that a bid odd as autopilot and chartplotter need interaction whereas gauges are there to see and not touch? I'd tend to go the other way round since I'm designing afresh. May have a go at having the keys and stop buttons close by though, as they'll be a hell of long way in the proposed spot Not to mention that presviopia (sp?) slowly coming in I'd be fine checking them dials at 1m

cheers

V.

 

[Spi D]

Ehh.. the pic was meant as inspiration. It's a Beneteau Swift Trawler 42, so layout priority was done by one of the largest builders around..

As YOU are going to use YOUR boat you should ofcourse put things where you feel they work best for you (without breaking all conventions )

Instruments can be found less expensive. Some even pretty close to the desired design..

 

[vas]

looks like that instead of expensive pyrometers, I could go for 2 exhaust water temp warning kits as discussed in this thread:
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=216296

or ready made kit from these guys
http://www.trickettmarineproducts.co.uk/exhaustalarm.html#aqualarms

crude, simple and hopefully effective in adding a bit more of peace of mind and not having me lean outside prt & stbrd checking there's plenty of water flowing on set off...

Or could simply go v.cheap with the 90C bimetalic sensor wired to a 100+db buzzer on both helm positions and be done with, no circuitry, no trimming, nothing to go wrong (OK, except the buzzer...) Added bonus that I can feed the signal to the BMS

V.

 

[Spi D]

A buzzer connected to oil pressure, water temp., exhaust temp. and raw water pressure should awaken any sleeping helmsman.

Temperature measured in exhust, before or after leaving cooling water is added, can be high or low. Caution is needed if it changes from normal...

 

[BartW]

Isn't that a bid odd as autopilot and chartplotter need interaction whereas gauges are there to see and not touch? I'd tend to go the other way round since I'm designing afresh. May have a go at having the keys and stop buttons close by though, as they'll be a hell of long way in the proposed spot Not to mention that presviopia (sp?) slowly coming in I'd be fine checking them dials at 1m

I'm completely with you on that,
On Blue Angel the engine dials are far away,
the plotter, and autopilot are close.
and thats also how I had in mind to modify the dash on Aegir (my Karnic)

I wouldn't bother about the start key's and stop button, no problem if these are further away, I would leave them on each engine panel.


Don't know about the dials you are using,
but the speed dial (from the paddle wheel) you can skip, as previously sugested.
SOG on your plotter, thats the one you want to look at.

 

[BartW]

about the panel,

some people prefer GRP ar any other plastic,
I would make it in alloy for the simple reason that we have machines to make these panels in my business.

upholstering with vinyl is one option,

selfadhesive finishing layer is another option,

On Aegir I had in mind to spray paint it with grey NEXTEL paint,
(suede feeling surface), Will do that one day on Blue Angel aswell.
In some modern boats (don't remember which brand) does the complete helm with Nextel paint (grey)
just another option

If you have difficulty getting hold of such a engraved or laser cutted panel, I can offer you one made to measure (unpainted) just not sure about if it makes sense, re transportcost to Greece.

 

[MapisM]

do I REALLY need a tachometer (whatever you call the thing that occasionaly displays a very approximate speed over water)

That's called speedo afaik, but nope, you don't need one imho. Particularly in the Med, where tides and currents are not critical.
Though there are now transducers which can measure the STW without any moving parts like the old small wheel, and they are reasonably reliable.
Re. the location of displays (plotter, radar) vs. instrument gauges, I don't disagree with yourself and Bart, but one thing to consider is that it's better to have also the displays placed somewhere with a proper visual angle.
I mean, I don't like these displays placed horizontally, so if by using the only vertical(ish) space in the dashboard for the gauges you're forced to place the display horizontally, I'm not sure that would be better from an ergonomical standpoint.
Btw, you want the controls of these instruments (a/p, plotter, ecc.) to be easily reachable, not necessarily the displays themselves. Some instruments nowadays allow the control units to be separated by the displays.
And in some boats, there's a band above the windshield which can be used for those displays which you don't need to look at frequently.
Just a thought, not sure about the arrangement of your p/house.

 

[vas]

thanks guys,

@Spi D there's already a buzzer (v.high pitch, extremely loud!) on each engine control panel next to the key/stop. Yep, I'll probably try to utilise this buzzer with whatever I choose to go for exhaust temp

@Bart there's going to be one panel for both, I'll post drawings on Tue when I do a detailed measurement of the dash space. Keys/stop buttons I may have to anyway move them to the right hand side of the steering wheel where the original keys/start from the detroits STILL live...
Re the paint, I'll check this NEXTEL sounds v.interesting but probably for someother things I have in mind. I'll stick to lining with vinyl selfadhesive pieces is a good idea, will see if I can get hold of them at reasonable sizes/prices down here.
Re lasercutting, thanks, we do have a couple of machines at the uni (not capable of alloy, only plexiglass and plywood) but I'll probably use the service of a good friend two blocks away and be done with it. Thanks for the offer

@MM sure, agree, wherever I put the engine gauges they WILL be clearly and straight away visible from the helm. You'll see in the section that will be two consecutive slanted surfaces, a slightly larger at the back with the engine dials and a tad smaller on the front behind the wheel for ap/chartploter/depth.

Which reminds me, is the speedo through hull hole 50cm aft of the engine raw water intakes a good spot for a depth sounder eye thing? or it should really be towards the bow? Saves me blanking one hole and drilling another...

cheers

V.

 

[MapisM]

is the speedo through hull hole 50cm aft of the engine raw water intakes a good spot for a depth sounder eye thing? or it should really be towards the bow?

Nope, for any transducers (typically speed is actually integrated with the echo sounder, either through wheel or ultrasound) it's much better not to have anything in front of them, to avoid turbulence.
It's not so much a matter of moving it towards the bow (where btw in a planing boat it could be even more exposed to turbulence), but rather in a "clean" area of the hull.

 

[rafiki_]

You can get a tachymetre which calcs speed over ground (many watches have this on the bezel). A tachometre measures engine revs/min.

Not sure why you would want a tachymetre, but sure all boats use a speed log, run from either a paddle wheel in the hull, or on US sports boats a pitot tube off the transom.

GPS also gives speed over the ground.

 

[Divemaster1]

Just seen this post....

For comparison, here's our from a while back...

For the record;

Radar is 10" and we now have a 14" chartplotter monitor standing up next to it and no obstruction when sitting in the helm seat (I am 178 Cm tall) and have good view down on engine instruments .... but would have preferred them to be "slid up" about 5 Cm for a better view of the lower gauges & may fix that this spring....

 

[Trundlebug]

Bilge Pump Alarm

You may wish to consider fitting a bilge pump alarm, either visual or audible (or both) in case your bilge pump activates whilst under way.

I recently added one of these http://www.celectron.co.uk/

to the blank space in the above the windscreen binnacle I showed here http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=268932&highlight=dashboard

A useful bit of kit, they don't cost thousands, well worth it IMHO.

I'm in the middle of fitting electric windcsreen demisters (15 Amps each side) at the moment too.

 

[vas]

thanks for the comments and suggestions.

Blonde moment, instruments are indeed VDO (they say so in large letters at the bottom of each dial...) found 2bar electronic pressure dials for turbos overall price with sensors/besels/etc works out 150USD, not bad, not excellent either. Would rather buy them from EU, any pointers?

Regarding dash design, I'm more into a minimal and no lacquered wood approach to anything (not only boat related) so I'll stick to my vinyl 70ies upholstery for the helm area.

Looking at Alf's pics (remember his craft is a "cousin" boat to mine 45 vs 43ft and GRP vs plywood) I realise that my 480mm width for the slanted dash plate can be extended by 80-100mm by cutting the edge step to the stbrd side of the dash. Got to relocate (slightly) the 70ies toggle switches for nav lights, horn, windlass, etc and got to find a better place for the trim controllers as seen in the following pics.

Existing condition and test fit in the area I want:

Thing is that its impossible to fit the 4X2X52mm dials plus the 2X85mm rev.counters plus indic bulbs in the 480X220mm plate that fits nicely in the slope just in front of the steering wheel and engine controls.

I've changed my mind in putting the plotter/A-P close by and the engine controls far away as the far away is a tad too far (measured it to around 1.6m!!! my eagle eyes are not that good...) so I'm going to adopt a setup similar to the original and what Alf has on his
Further, for the next year there wont be a plotter and my trusty Sony vaio P series with integrated GPS will be hooked to the A/P. So that will fit in the space just behind the dials, A/P will move to the slanted area to the right of the steering wheel (OK, realised I've not got it shown properly in any photo, will get some tomorrow)

Effectively all will be near by with space for a upstanding largish plotter if I go ahead and get one. TBH, I may skip that and stick to a v.minimal dash, plus a control plate with indicators for lights/bilge pumps/etc as seen on some recent craft.

Qs:

What else am I missing from the dash area?

• One VHF is in front of the chart area to port, the second is right of the helm seat.
• trim tabs will move to the right hand side, next to the keys/stop button and the v.odd wipers controllers (wouldn't mind replacing them with something more discreet taking up less space tbh!)
• there will be a BMS touch pad with 3line text area for reporting events.

black water tank control should be up here, or can be placed/hidden in the MB head?
genny control box is a massive ugly white thing that lives under the helm seat, wont bother moving that about...


cheers

V.

 

[BartW]

What else am I missing from the dash
V.

Sonar or depth display ?

 

[vas]

Sonar or depth display ?

sorry, forgot, there IS a 70ies vintage Seafarer 3 depthfinder that doesn't seem to work (haven't yet found the sender...) and it's at the far front, just under the windscreen. Will be replaced with the chartplotter/depth thingy once I buy it. Have looked around and atm Garmin is my favourite, just not willing to spend around a grand now that all sorts of things are being fixed/rebuilt and cost me money...
Wouldn't mind getting a radar, but I doubt I'll ever get one, unless I find a dirt cheap one s/h.

cheers

V.

 

[Divemaster1]

...........Thing is that its impossible to fit the 4X2X52mm dials plus the 2X85mm rev.counters plus indic bulbs in the 480X220mm plate that fits nicely in the slope just in front of the steering wheel and engine controls..........

Our VHF and Intercom is above seat (inset towards flybridge ) .... and Ignition keys, stop buttons, sound alarms and warning lights (Port and Stb in rows beside each other) are in the "shaded area" beside helm seat (in front of roll of tape in picture), which is above EL panel...

 

[vas]

thanks for the photos Alf,

I've been examining my options, measuring and dismantling the iveco dash evaluating how easy/difficult is to separate dials from warning lights and keys/stop buttons.

Photos describe the existing dash condition.

Following photo shows the whole right hand side toggles/swithes/et al. Note at the far front the trim tabs (probably to remain somewhere there) followed by the push buttons for lights, horn, windlass, etc (also best to stay there and avoid unwanted presses...)

On the following photo you can clearly see the old detroit key/stop/other bits controls on the slanted area and the two MASSIVE (in size) controls for the wipers. Plan is to redo the slanted piece of dash for the keys/stop buttons on the ivecos and under them as it goes wider I can fit the Cetrek autopilot control.

The following is a side view good to figure out how it works out ergonomically, what's close what's far away.

based on the previous photo, I made a trace over sketch of how the dash will work out with all the dials in place, plus keys/stops autopilot on the side:

General comments:

Dials are indeed VDOs and specifically are
Ocean Line Series / Severe Duty Black Series from 2000 -2001

Problem is that there is no boost gauge on this particular severe duty series, but tbh picking one other from the Ocean Line Series as long as its black looks the same. so there are some options work out to almost 200euro with sensors and delivery as unfortunately they are not mechanical, all need sensors.

Removing the keys/stops and keeping only the necessary warning lights (more on that latter) I came up with designs that do fit the area so I can spare the right hand side "step" where the trim tabs are. That's a screen capture from autocad with a dozen versions {started from the right hand side, moved around clockwise and final ver is top one on the left column)

Q time:
I have the option of buying 8 warning lights/bulbs fittings that fit inside the respective dials, so the oil pressure warning light comes not on an fugly large square warning light as now, but WITHIN the round 52mm dial gauge (and obviously getting rid of the other warning lights that means less clutter on dash!).
Shall I do it, or is it best to have warnings separate?
I understand they'll be maybe slightly more visible during daytime as individual warnings but I also understand (or rather hope) that when one comes up the warning sound will also be on, so I'll be alerted and look around the dash anyhow.

fugly warning lights are these:

Apparently only the two top rows work on mine (not sure as the third row lits up as well when turning the ignition before engine fires up).
I understand that they are:

TEMP - BATTERY
OIL (press or level?) - no idea!
heating coil (not installed) - no idea!
empty - no idea!
Anyone can help on that?

Q2: any pointers to smaller wiper controls? I mean I don't really need to have them that far apart and so big... I'll have a go at checking the electronics underneath and see if they'll fit on something more reasonable, but any vintagesque discreet control pointers would be appreciated

Concluding, general approach is tuck everything in a reasonable space, keep as much as possible original bits (so light/horn/windlass et all toggles remain!) and make it more functional.
Next, leave a LARGE space just behind the dials for chartplotter/radar if and when I get one. For the time being it will be a nice place to put my laptop with OpenCPN on and that's where the usb NMEA port for controlling the A/P will be

cheers

V.