Heavy weather sailing question

[Boo2]

Hi,

I've been reading the latest edition of Adlard Coles' "Heavy Weather Sailing" with great interest and I notice that there are several mentions of the fact that yachts will typically not sit comfortably head to wind behind a sea anchor or drogue. I understand that this is because of the underwater shape plus the effects of the windage of the mast etc.

I just wondered whether it is possible to overcome these effects by bending on a storm sail to the backstay with a strop to a deck fitting and a line to (say) the main boom gooseneck or something so as to put the centre of effort well back and so get her to lie easily bows to the wind behind a sea anchor / drogue ?

Has anyone tried this and care to report what happened ? It would seem preferable to having the stern to wind and being pooped by every big breaking wave but I haven't seen any references to this so maybe there's a catch ?

Thanks,

Boo2

 

[Billjratt]

Maybe it's covered later in the book!!
If I was in conditions that merited a sea anchor, I would not be putting canvas on the backstay or anywhere else.
I'm sure I have heard of taking a line back from the main bow rope to keep the boat at a slight angle to the weather.
We carried a parachute and two sea anchors for oodles of years/miles and they never saw the light of day.

 

[haydude]

Hi,
I just wondered whether it is possible to overcome these effects by bending on a storm sail to the backstay with a strop to a deck fitting and a line to (say) the main boom gooseneck or something so as to put the centre of effort well back and so get her to lie easily bows to the wind behind a sea anchor / drogue ?

Has anyone tried this and care to report what happened ?

A dismast? Ever wondered why the backstay is thinner? The greater angle applies a greater force to the mast top than that of the forestay.

A small sail in strong wind also excerts a greater force than a full sail in light to medium winds. Add that to the angle and you risk a dismast.

 

[KINGFISHER 9]

You may find that she'll lie beam on to a sea anchor, depending on your keel configuration .. this should be fine and she should ride over pretty much anything. The snags arise when the crests start breaking .. time to make sure the hatch is shut and hang on tight .. and ship window covers if you've got them!

 

[Boo2]

A dismast? Ever wondered why the backstay is thinner? The greater angle applies a greater force to the mast top than that of the forestay.

I hope you don't mind me arguing the point, I'm genuinely interested to understand this in more detail :

if the mast top is not moving relative to the base then the fore and aft forces must balance ? I guess the backstay can be thinner because of the better angle, but that isn't a reason why it must be thinner, or am I missing something ?

A small sail in strong wind also exerts a greater force than a full sail in light to medium winds. Add that to the angle and you risk a dismast.

Point taken, but for a small enough sail in any given wind you should be able to reduce the force to the same size as the main in a "normal" wind ? Providing that's enough to keep the bows to the wind the aim has been achieved.

Boo2

 

[Boo2]

You may find that she'll lie beam on to a sea anchor, depending on your keel configuration .. this should be fine and she should ride over pretty much anything. The snags arise when the crests start breaking .. time to make sure the hatch is shut and hang on tight .. and ship window covers if you've got them!

Well, that was the whole point really - the idea was to avoid lying beam on to the seas so as to minimise the risk of being rolled over by a breaking wave.

Boo2

 

[RAI]

Certainly people talk about using a riding sail on the backstay to reduce the boat swinging on an ordinary anchor. I guess the typical snaking about is common to a sea anchor as well.
I have used a secondary line to reduce the back and forth motion on an ordinary anchor, setting the bow a little off the wind.

 

[Aeolus]

Heavy weather

I think that's the reason why a Jordan's serial drogue is a potentially better solution - you run with the weather but slower, breaking waves are likely only to poop you and non-breaking waves just travel by.

Not that I have had to use either a drogue or a sea anchors so I speak only from a theoretical perspective. Does the latest edition of HWS mention JSDs and if so, what does it say?

 

[Boo2]

Maybe it's covered later in the book!!

Maybe

If I was in conditions that merited a sea anchor, I would not be putting canvas on the backstay or anywhere else.

Point taken, but it might be better to be bows on with some canvas rather than abeam without ?

I'm sure I have heard of taking a line back from the main bow rope to keep the boat at a slight angle to the weather.

I have absolutely zero experience here, but the books I have read suggest this does not work either with sea anchors or drogues : with sea anchors in particular there is a tendency for it to be thrown back by the next wave and for the line to go slack as a result. This means the boat goes sideways on and if the next wave breaks it's bad news.

We carried a parachute and two sea anchors for oodles of years/miles and they never saw the light of day.

That would be my plan too

Boo2

 

[Boo2]

I think that's the reason why a Jordan's serial drogue is a potentially better solution - you run with the weather but slower, breaking waves are likely only to poop you and non-breaking waves just travel by.

Yes, but one of the quoted disadvantages of running, even towing a drogue/warp is the bows can still dig in to the wave in front and either pitchpole you or twist you beam on. This should be less of an issue if it were possible to keep the boat bows to the wind.

I am obviously not the first person to think of this so there must be a reason it's not done, I'm just interested to know what it is.

Not that I have had to use either a drogue or a sea anchors so I speak only from a theoretical perspective. Does the latest edition of HWS mention JSDs and if so, what does it say?

The JSD is mentioned, but I don't have the book to hand right now and am also reading other books which also mention JSD's so might confuse these with HWS if I try to answer now. I'll have a look later tonight, if no-one else answers first.

Boo2

 

[haydude]

Point taken, but for a small enough sail in any given wind you should be able to reduce the force to the same size as the main in a "normal" wind ? Providing that's enough to keep the bows to the wind the aim has been achieved.

Boo2

You are correct, but I would have rather that sail at the mast. Having in-mast furling allows to set a very small yet stabilizing sail like you would like, by keeping the boom centered. Without in-mast the only alternative is a small storm sail again, centered. However a fixed size storm sail might be still to large to achieve what you are looking for.

In both cases the sail would have a stabilizing effect with a sea anchor dropped from the bow.

However I was wondering in which case would you set a passive rig like this rather than sailing? Even minimal speed would grant some control and I would not want to find myself without control in stormy weather.

These are some cases I thought of how to face a storm (force 9-10 or more):

1) lee shore that means I am near land: I'd rather sail in the direction of the nearest safe port that allows for a run or a broad.

2) middle of the english channel having to go back to work on Monday: I should not have been there in the first place if I looked at the forecast, however now I am here, sod work, get on a run/broad to the nearest port in that direction

3) middle of the ocean with the storm blowing opposite my destination: well that might be a case when you would not want to get on a run however I would still consider it.

The point is that safest thing to do is to avoid a fight with the weather because you may loose it.

 

[macd]

The snags arise when the crests start breaking

I say, what terribly British understatement

 

[ianabc]

Development of the series drogue....

I believe that the series drogue was developed under contract to the US Coast Guard by Mr. Jordan.

There would appear to be many reasons for developing the series drogue. One I have heard t was motor lifeboats crossing the bar in Oregon would be accelerated by following breaking seas to the extent that capsize could and did result.

According to my reading of the Jordan Series Drogue material there have been no recorded instances of a series drogue deployment causing capsize or pitch poling.

I have discussed the use of a parachute anchor with a qualified sea captain and owner of a 48 foot sailboat. That vessel experimented in moderate seas and moderate winds off Easter Island with a sea anchor using 5/8 line. The line was stretched to the extent that it could no longer be relied upon as its strength was impaired. Also the sea anchor/parachute, was difficult to set and retrieve making both tasks dangerous.

 

[multihullsailor6]

Hi,

I just wondered whether it is possible to overcome these effects by bending on a storm sail to the backstay with a strop to a deck fitting and a line to (say) the main boom gooseneck or something so as to put the centre of effort well back and so get her to lie easily bows to the wind behind a sea anchor / drogue ?

Boo2,
You might be interested to read Hal Roth's excellent book "Handling Storms at Sea" where, amongst various other methods, he reports on the virtues and practicalities of just such a storm riding sail. Best design of such a riding sail seems to be a V-shaped one with two sides.

 

[PeterGibbs]

Hi,

I've been reading the latest edition of Adlard Coles' "Heavy Weather Sailing" with great interest and I notice that there are several mentions of the fact that yachts will typically not sit comfortably head to wind behind a sea anchor or drogue. I understand that this is because of the underwater shape plus the effects of the windage of the mast etc.

Thanks,

Boo2

The windage on the hull is the main factor causing falloff in strong headwinds, which oncoming waves compound to casue sheering. The other factors contribute.

Running off is a favourite response to such conditions, but to hold position demands a drogue or anchor set off the stern, offering much less resistance to the conditions.
Some argue against this because the steering can be slammed as seas pass under the boat.
The standard answer is to lash the tiller.

Professor Noel Dilly lectures on the merits of streeming a drogue from the sern - it seems to make a lot of sense.

The famous Pardys argue for pointing into the conditions with an anchor set forward on an adjustable strop: this seems to have little following in the community because it is so uncomfortable in a modern high freeboard boat. But the logic is that seas are presented to the sharp end which is better able to throw them off. An aft set small sail could well help stabilise the boat when it presents at about 40 degs to the wind.

You takes your choice....

PWG

 

[robertj]

look for linn and larry pardy's book on storms.

bob

 

[Danny]

The famous Pardys argue for pointing into the conditions with an anchor set forward on an adjustable strop: this seems to have little following in the community because it is so uncomfortable in a modern high freeboard boat. But the logic is that seas are presented to the sharp end which is better able to throw them off. An aft set small sail could well help stabilise the boat when it presents at about 40 degs to the wind.

You takes your choice....

PWG

Another point the Pardys made in support of sea anchors was that the action of the 'chute slowly dragging through the water caused a 'wake' of disturbance to windward which helped prevent wave crests breaking. I've no experience of conditions like these but it sounded quite convincing when I read it!

 

[Salty John]

The Pardeys argue that the boat must lie about 50 degs to the wind and that the long keel causes a slick which causes oncoming waves to break and slap harmlessly against the hull. They've done it, so they should know. They adopt this method whether simply hove-to or lying to a parachute anchor.
Personally I would prefer to run off when conditions have passed the point where heaving-to remains comfortable. I do agree, however, that lying hove-to in this attitude is relatively comfortable.
To lie bow directly to wind, held by a sea anchor, must be brutal on the boat and it's fittings. The boat would be throwing the bow from side to side, shaking it's head, and backing down one second and snatching forward the next. Yuk!
I've found that, when things get nasty, simplicity is your friend. Trying to deploy complex gear - warps, sea anchor, riding sail - requires strong crew and great dedication. The Jordan drogue interests me because it is potentially easier to deploy than slinging a mess of warps off the stern and so is more likely to be used.
I think a well found boat of good design can look after it's crew with relatively little intervention on their part and that attempting to deploy unproven and complex anti-storm gear can cause more trouble than you're in already!

 

[Tommyrot]

These are some cases I thought of how to face a storm (force 9-10 or more):

1) lee shore that means I am near land: I'd rather sail in the direction of the nearest safe port that allows for a run or a broad.

2) middle of the english channel having to go back to work on Monday: I should not have been there in the first place if I looked at the forecast, however now I am here, sod work, get on a run/broad to the nearest port in that direction

In an F9-F10, the last thing I'd be thinking about would be getting closer to the solid bits!
Heading away from land might be the safer plan.....

 

[tcm]

I have run with some fairly lively weather, altho it felt a bit more controlled to motor gently towards larger breaking waves. Once the waves start breaking, and you're motoring upwind, and it's yerknow, okay... i haven't yet had the conviction to stop that and start deploying the sea anchor - a whole pile of not-cheap lines, canvas gets lobbed over the bow and if it isn't as good as the motoring gently idea - hard luck, cos you obviously gotta switch them off. And if things go wrong with the parachute, well, you'd better leave it out until you can hapily motor any whch way to get the dang thing back if the conventional haul-in doesn't go to plan.

I do have a mini tyre to tow although not used so far.

I have played with the parachute anchor and the most memorable thing in just 10-15 knots of wind was the fabulous stretching of the octoplait line. I was a bit leery of even being on the foredeck with a 200metre line stretched like a steel bar straight ahead, possibly playable as a D sharp...

With another contributor hereabouts i found myself in 44knots with the parasailor/spinnaker up and we just rode it downwind, surfing 15-20 knots and overtaking some ships. I remeber his wife sitting in the cockpit, and i chattd with her about if she's ever been out in a gale and she said oh no, certainly not, har har.

I suppose the "turn and face it" or "series drogue downwind" options are for when the wind is higher than winds we saw, but then it's getting a bit late then innit?

However, the general idea of the parachute anchor is good - it's sposed to allow (by then) exhausted crews to get some sleep, and quite lot of rescued crews quote the exhaustion factor as the tipping point when they make the call for rescue. The idea is that you balance the boat with parachute on the fwd quarter, teensy bits of sail and rudder as appropriate, boat slithering back slowly in its own slick, so that once set you can have a kip. I supose really i oughta have a go at it in some proper weather and if it's cr ap and/or i can't make it work, well, to hell with it, drive up, try and save the line anyway and cut it near the parachute....