Heavy Weather and small boats

[hhsailor]

Hello all,

while I like the idea and the spirit of small boat sailing on ocean routes, like Hasler with his "Jester" did - and would like to join - I'm still not able to ignore the big question, that follows such projects of trans-ocean travelling:

how to survive heavy weather on small boats, if there is no way to escape?

Is there already the final recipe, that will save you and your boat, if things getting nasty and the wind climbs to 50knots or more?

Here are some little examples, which way it may look

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dYpeakBYkY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfEo6E6nElE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BX3kFCgvKp4

I hope, none of the Jester-Challengers get scared by viewing this.

But I'd like to know the answers, how to handle heavy weather like this.
How about experiences of small boat sailors with extreme conditions?
I think, we all hope, it will not happen, that we meet a sea, like this.
But is hope the only measure, we have at hand?

best wishes to all, daring the JC-adventure!
hhsailor

 

[Ceirwan]

Well with regards to the size of some of those waves I'm not sure how an extra 15 foot would help that much anyway.
I've never been out in that sort of sea condition, and I doubt most people have, but making an observation from the videos.

In the first one, I guess the main issue would be surfing to fast, none of the waves appear to be breaking.

The second two look a little bit more scary, for the merchant ship one In particular (the one in Biscay) I would be worried.
To be honest, I haven't finalised my ideas for storm tactics yet, but I imagine in that case you would just have to see what worked. Praying might help!

 

[hhsailor]

Hi Ceirvan,

Thanx for replying.

There are off course some kind of heavy weather tactics known, like using a drogue, to heave or to run down the waves.
Don't know, what's fitting and is secure with which kind of boat.

I would rather like to know, what experiences other small boat sailors have made with one or another of these practices.

There is one german sailor, who sailed down nonstop the worst route, we know: against wind and currents, like Chay Blyth did before.
Unlike Blyth Erdmann - aged 65 - has a ) in relation to the "British Steel" with 62') small boat: the "Kathena Nui" with a length of 40 feet, the smallest, that was successful with this trip until now.

He was reporting an endless series of heavy storms in the higher southern latitudes, that he survived, mostly running before the waves.
Since he's - to my knowledge - the most experienced sailor, with heavy weather and a relatively small boat - after sailing 6 month in nearly continous stormy weather - I think, it may not be wrong, to listen to what he's telling about this issue.

his occasional reporting of the trip (sorry, just german)
some of his advices

Though I still think, that the use of a suitable drogue might help.
Maybe, one could fill a complete book with the reports of small boat sailing in heavy weather - I would study it, to find out,what's working and what did not.
But off course I think it needs too testing and trying, how to manage the own ship in heavy seas.

 

[BlackPig]

This is all from my readings not experience!
Robin knox-johnson says " use wraps not a drogue" it puts less stress on the boat, If you are worried about a lee shore then you should be sailing not lying too.

"Size is not relevant to seaworthiness just comfort" Tinkerbell cant remember the chaps name off hand. The forces on a large ship may brake it, were as a small bot will ride over the top of big waves. Look at the petrel bobbing on a rough sea.

Or is this just wish full thinking?

 

[Athene V30]

Or is this just wish full thinking?

If not wishful certainly positive thinking!

My plan is theoretical and simple, keep sailing into it under ever reducing sail as long as I can then when that gets too much heave to or lie a hull & go below until it all gets too uncomfortable. The final step for me is to turn down wind streaming every bit of rope I have until the knee pads on my foulies give up (from praying), the weather improves or I drown. Sounds easy sat in a warm office

As I said this is theory as I have not sailed solo for more than 18 hours at a stretch yet. Still what is life without a CHALLENGE!

 

[Sadlermike]

This is a very wide topic to address in a forum. There are dozens of books on the subject of which 'Heavy Weather Sailing' edited by Peter Bruce is the classic.

I have never sailed in life threatening conditions. The worst I have experienced was a four day F9 in mid-Atlantic. From that severe gale I offer the following thoughts.

1 The difference between strong winds and a severe gale is like chalk and cheese. It is important to go out in a F6 or 7 to determine and practice a strategy which you hope never to implement but when you are in a severe gale the conditions will be more extreme than you expect. It will be extraordinary difficult to make any adjustments to sail trim when sailing singlehanded. You have to determine a strategy based on practice in strong winds and then, when you anticipate a gale, implement your planned strategy well in advance (when it is only blowing six or seven) as it will be almost impossible later on. Once you have implemented your plan, stick with it unless there are overwhelming reasons to change. I am sceptical of any suggestion that, when conditions become too severe to continue heaving to, it is possible to change strategy and run (or vice versa); resetting the sails would be too much of a challenge.

2 The psychological issues are at least as important as the technical issues. How well you cope with the noise, the size of the breaking waves and the isolation will determine the outcome as much as how well your sails are set.

These thoughts are based on sailing in a half a dozen gales and a prolonged severe gale; I am sure a storm is in another league again. My personal preference is to heave to and I anticipate that is what I will do if ever caught in a storm but I respect the views of people who have found other strategies successful.

 

[hhsailor]

Hi all and thanx for replying,

@sadlermike:
Nice to meet you here !(I'm too a fan of the very north after traveling the north of norway)
When sailing the north, your chance of encountering heavy weather will be enhanced, and thus I consider your advice to be valuable.
This lets me think about a "Jester Challenge N", should say routing to Iceland, Greenland or the North Cape/Vardö or like that: the destinations may offer much more of magic delightening the soul of the lone sailors, than the risk of being plunged by an inattentive helmsman of a big carrier at the US coast.

If we think of behaviour within a stormy sea, I wonder, how to handle best a breaking crest of a big wave, or if that crests get very steep, avoiding to drop into the wave trough, like it was reported by David Lewis (his "Icebird") and others.
I think, the breaking of a crest might become dangerous, if this gets a height of 12 ft and more.
Is heaving to still helpful in such conditions? will it stop the tendency of breaking?

You told, it's hard to change the tactics, if you're already involved into heavy weather conditions and I agree.
On the other hand I heard from Wilfried Erdmann (who was sailing the nonstop course against the wind in the southern fiftys), that you just need very small sails that are easyer to handle in such conditions and gives you the ability of active sailing.

I think, it's a good idea, testing the options in lighter conditions, like F6 to F7 and mabe each sailor with a small boat heading to a sea passage should do it.
But though I think it's hard to develope a scope of experiences, that covers most of hard weather conditions, that may occur, and thus we need to collect experiences by other sailors and their discussion and evaluation, as also theoretical analysis of the dynamics and forces developed by wind and waves and the specific local conditions.

regards - hhsailor

 

[puddock]

"Size is not relevant to seaworthiness just comfort" Tinkerbell cant remember the chaps name off hand. The forces on a large ship may brake it, were as a small bot will ride over the top of big waves. Look at the petrel bobbing on a rough sea.

Or is this just wish full thinking?

I once chatted to a retired trawleman in a pub who commented that he'd far rather be at sea (in storm conditions) in a boat than a ship.

For the record, I do not usually hang around harbour bars chatting to trawlermen .......

 

[NickiCrutchfield]

The first two clips are winter and I'd hazard a guess that the third is too. My favoured tactic would be going in summer.

 

[hhsailor]

Hi Nicki,

this

is a pic from June 21 in 2006, when the round britain race touched the waters of the hebrides.
The mast of the boat has about 15 meters height.

We're in the midst of a climate change with no more guarantee of moderate weather in the summer.

regards - hhsailor

 

[NickiCrutchfield]

I know that picture. It is of the Dutch yacht Vijaya. She is steel and she was bent along her length by falling off a wave. I was in Barra at the time waiting for the weather to ease. It was bloody rough but it is also nearly 60 degrees north. The same happened in the 2002 RBI. great race by the way.
I made no comment that there is never bad weather in the summer, just that it is less likely.
Nicki

 

[hhsailor]

I know that picture. It is of the Dutch yacht Vijaya. She is steel and she was bent along her length by falling off a wave.

Hi Nick,
thanx for this further explanation, I didn't knew before.
Thus we're having a case worth of discussion:
How could it happen to a ship of steel to become this way heavy damaged?
And how to avoid this kind of dangerous event, dropping of crests of big waves?
What might the crew have done to stay safer in a sea like this?

regards - hhsailor

 

[OGITD]

Heavy Weather SAILING!

This is more like the heavy weather video we should be taking note of….not the characteristics of large merchant traffic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IV5llWEEfAw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKusg6Jyc9Y&feature=related

And they enjoyed it!

 

[NickiCrutchfield]

HHsailor,
I have to be careful as I do not know the full facts adn I don't want to write anything which is incorrect. My understanding is that she set off into worsening weather after her 48 hour compulsory stop. Her skipper is a highly experienced OSTAR man. If I remember correctly from speaking to him in the pub in Barra, he and his co-skipper had become tired and hungry and were struggling. When the boat was damaged they were both lying on the cabin sole. The wind was force 10 and in that part of the world there is always deep water swell just waiting for a bit of wind to release it. About 24 hours before that picture was taken I was attempting to row our boat in warm sunshine and flat calm. It is really hard to understand the speed with which the weather deteriorates without experiencing it. If you sit and look at the sea there when it is calm it somehow feels 'full' of swell. There is a barely supressed violence and it is quite something to feel that unstoppable power. Pretty scary too.
Nicki

 

[nicholas49]

heavy weather and small boats

Hi ,
Thank you for your kind comments on "jury rudders" thread, quite unmerited, all I did was manage a semi-controlled drift.
When under bare poles for 18 hours, we experienced a marked drift sideways,with a slick to windward, which seemed to reduce the waves on our beam.This has convinced me to go for the sea-anchor and hove-to approach as described by the Pardeys in"Storm Tactics".This method also means the storm will pass downwind quicker, hopefully, and less ground is lost than running off.Looking at the second of those two videos, the ketch appeared to be running, and it looked a bit hairy to me. It would require great skill and concentration from the helmsman, and I possess neither.Also, whilst one could do this for long periods with a crew, on one's own that is not an option.If I ever meet such conditions, I want to set it up and go to bed, preferably with a hot-water-bottle and a large whisky.
As regards the film clip of the cargo ship,for 12 years I sailed in ships similar to the third one shown , the bulk-carrier, and only saw conditions like that or worse on a handful of occasions.
Best Wishes to all, Nick(Dolphin of Fowey)

 

[Paradox]

This is all from my readings not experience!
Robin knox-johnson says " use wraps not a drogue" it puts less stress on the boat, If you are worried about a lee shore then you should be sailing not lying too.

"Size is not relevant to seaworthiness just comfort" Tinkerbell cant remember the chaps name off hand. The forces on a large ship may brake it, were as a small bot will ride over the top of big waves. Look at the petrel bobbing on a rough sea.

Or is this just wish full thinking?

Robert Manry was the guy who did the transatlantic in Tinkerbelle.
http://www.clevelandmemory.org/ebooks/tinkerbelle/contents.html
http://www.clevelandmemory.org/manry/video/tink03.ram

Two names that jump out for me immediately are Sven Yrvind and of course Roger Taylor.

Sven intends to sail his new boat, Yrvind 1/2, round the Horn (against the prevailing winds) and across the Pacific, up to Japan. At 70 years old, I doubt there is anyone else who has the same small boat experience as he has. I'd recommend reading his life works at his web site http://www.yrvind.com and also the construction and thoughts on his latest project.
In the furled sails podcasts he talks about his love of small boats and why they as safe, or safer than their bigger siblings.
http://furledsails.com/article.php3?article=726
http://furledsails.com/article.php3?article=727

Roger Taylor's website is inspirational
http://thesimplesailor.com/
and his book Voyages of a Simple Sailor, should be a must read for every offshore small boat sailor.
again furled sails podcast with Roger at
http://furledsails.com/article.php3?article=779
http://furledsails.com/article.php3?article=780

 

[jesterchallenger]

Heavy weather and small boats

It's not always frightening - have a look at www.youtube.co.uk, search on 'rough weather sailing' and have a look at 'rough weather - Corentin Douguet sailing crazy Figaro' and 'big wave sailing', both of which look like a lot of fun. Sorry, but I don't know how to post the direct links into this post, I've only completed (and failed) the beginners course of How to Use a Computer.....
Duncan

 

[Fire99]

It's not always frightening - have a look at www.youtube.co.uk, search on 'rough weather sailing' and have a look at 'rough weather - Corentin Douguet sailing crazy Figaro' and 'big wave sailing', both of which look like a lot of fun. Sorry, but I don't know how to post the direct links into this post, I've only completed (and failed) the beginners course of How to Use a Computer.....
Duncan

On the 'Big Wave Sailing', if it's the same one off the coast of Pembrokeshire, personally I may of been tempted to put the washboards in.
However both clips look a whole lot of fun. The earlier 'Commercial' clips looked a bit more serious.

 

[hhsailor]

It's not always frightening - have a look at www.youtube.co.uk, search on 'rough weather sailing' and have a look at 'rough weather - Corentin Douguet sailing crazy Figaro' and 'big wave sailing', both of which look like a lot of fun.

Off course. You may have much fun when sailing with strong wind and big waves.
But add only some change of the conditions: when the strong wind does not blow from the coast or is just starting (video 1), but - with a fetch of thousand miles - builds huge and maybe breaking waves.
Or the maybe still handy waves get a current against them to make them very steep. Or the water is getting shallow and the sea turning evil.
And maybe add darkness and heavy rain.
We all hope, this will not happen to us.
But I'd feel much better when starting, if I know, I'm properly prepared also if things turn nasty.

regards - hhsailor

 

[OGITD]

Cheers for the Chuckle Duncan

I've only completed (and failed) the beginners course of How to Use a Computer.....
Duncan

Cheers for the Chuckle Duncan