Headsails

[reeac]

I introduced this query into the furling jib thread recently but got no replies so here goes again. Headsails can be ranked according to size with, say, storm jib being smallest and 150[?]% genoa largest but where does the working jib fit in compared with the no.3 genoa for example? Are all genoas defined as more than 100% J? Is there an ordinary or regular jib as well as a working jib? Can someone produce a size ranking?

 

[Lakesailor]

Quick Google produced this of Gypsy Moth in an answer to a similar question

But I expect there are many different definitions.

 

[sailorman]

I introduced this query into the furling jib thread recently but got no replies so here goes again. Headsails can be ranked according to size with, say, storm jib being smallest and 150[?]% genoa largest but where does the working jib fit in compared with the no.3 genoa for example? Are all genoas defined as more than 100% J? Is there an ordinary or regular jib as well as a working jib? Can someone produce a size ranking?

A "Working" Jib would be the biggest non overlapping sail & not full luff length as this would tend to be a " Solent " Jib

 

[Twister_Ken]

Sail making (and naming) is hardly a regulated industry, so looking for a definitive list may be fruitless - each loft will have its own definitions.

FWIW it's worth, when I raced a 41 foot mast head rigged sloop we had the following white sails in the wardrobe.

Light number 1 (150%, up to 10 kts)
Number 1 (ditto, up to 18 kts)
Number 2 (unsure about exact size, probably about 120%) rarely used.
Number 3 (just over 100%, but with a high cut foot, a great sail and usually went up when the number 1 came down)
Number 4 (about 80%, not a full hoist luff, good in strong winds when cruising the boat)
Storm jib (tiny, never used except when on show to scrutineers)

 

[flaming]

Every sailmaker has a different name for all sorts of sails.

Luckily of late headsails have largely been standardised into numbers. With the largest numbers being the smallest sails.
The old "working jib" is probably today's number 3, but then it does depend on what the sailmaker thinks the boat should have.

If you think this is complicated, you should try delving into the ever confusing world of spinnaker types.
One reason North sell so many sails, they developed a number system that meant everyone knew what they were buying!

 

[reeac]

headsails

Thanks for the replies, everyone. I don't feel so bad about my ignorance now that I can see the disarray of headsail notation. My conclusion is [I think] that a no.3 genoa, being a genoa, must be at least 100%J but probably only a bit more whereas a working jib is probably a bit less than J.

 

[DavidMcMullan]

As a comparison, the Contessa 32 website gives the different genoa sizes allowed for racing (see http://www.co32.org/SECTION_Racing/Rules_PART3.html).
The J dimension is the spinnaker pole length of 12.67ft.

 

[Seafort]

Noooooo

Quick Google produced this of Gypsy Moth

She sails like ****e though....and yes I have.

Dave.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

The working jib has a high cut clew and normally the tack is fastened to the deck by a "tack tackle". The jib was hoisted high and then the luff tensioned by the tack tackle.

The high clew and high tack was so that the crew could work on the fore deck. The high clew allowed the sail to flap over their heads and the high tack kept it clear of anchors, winches and windlasses.

The sail was commonly used and not quite as small as most would think. Many working jibs have a reef point to reduce the sail area by about 30%. Its probably quite near to a No 3 Genoa but not quite that size.

Similar to Twister_Ken I sailed on a vessel that had a full suit of sails. After the No 3 Genoa, we hoisted the "Working Jib", which could be reefed as described above.

Post Posting Edit: Having re-read Twister_Ken's post, his No 3 is what I am describing above.

I always thought that a Genoa has its foot cut more or less parallel to the deck, while a jib has its foot cut up and away from the deck and that this was the defining characteristic for the sail's name and not area. I could be wrong or this is an out dated definition.

 

[trapezeartist]

I thought the sail with the high clew was a Yankee.

 

[reeac]

As a comparison, the Contessa 32 website gives the different genoa sizes allowed for racing (see http://www.co32.org/SECTION_Racing/Rules_PART3.html).
The J dimension is the spinnaker pole length of 12.67ft.

I always thought that J was the horizontal distance from forestay to mast measured, I assume, at the level of the foot of some sail or other or maybe at deck level. Does this mean that a spinnaker pole should be of this same dimension? I saw a website recently [I think as a result of some forum discussion] which claimed that the optimum length for whisker pole was 1.1J.

 

[santeana]

I always thought that J was the horizontal distance from forestay to mast measured, I assume, at the level of the foot of some sail or other or maybe at deck level. Does this mean that a spinnaker pole should be of this same dimension? I saw a website recently [I think as a result of some forum discussion] which claimed that the optimum length for whisker pole was 1.1J.

In sail design the % of J is usually measured as "luff perpendicular", rather than foot of sail. This is why, for example a, 100% jib slightly overlaps the mast.

 

[Coaster]

From a quick Google:

How to distinguish one headsail from another

"It’s common to refer to a small sailboat’s headsails by numbers according to their size. This includes jibs—which, in the strict definition of the word, should be flying from their own luffs—and forestaysails, which are fastened to a headstay.Thus, the No. 1 jib could be the biggest light-weather sail, No. 2 a smaller working jib, and No. 3 a storm jib. If you have a greater selection of headsails, they are numbered in a greater range, as their size indicates.

On racing sailboats and modern cruisers, headsails are often referred to by their size as a percentage of the foretriangle—that is, the triangle formed by the mast, the forestay, and the deck. Thus, a 150 percent jib would have an area 50 percent greater than that of the foretriangle.The word jib is used loosely here, of course. Strictly speaking, it refers to a headsail carried forward of the forestay—the stay that joins the stem to the mast. A forestaysail (usually shortened to foresail) is a headsail hanked or rolled on to a forestay.

A Genoa jib is actually a large forestaysail with a low-cut, deck-sweeping foot; a Yankee is another foresail with a high-cut foot ending forward of the mast, usually flown in combination with a working forestaysail on a cutter.

Headsail sheets are usually controlled by winches in the cockpit, sized according to the loads generated by the sails. To find the load on a headsail sheet, multiply the sail area in square feet by the wind speed in knots squared. Dividing the answer by 232 results in the approximate pull on the sheet in pounds. For example, a 150-square-foot jib in 15 knots of wind will create a pull on its sheet of approximately 150 x 225 ÷ 232 = 145 pounds."

Found at http://www.answers.com/topic/jib-numbers

I thought that the strict definition of a jib, i.e. it has to fly from its own luff, forward of the forestay, is interesting. If it's hanked or rolled onto the forestay it's a forestaysail, usually abbreviated to foresail.

Clearly there are no universal standards for sail size numbers.

 

[reeac]

tension in jib sheets

The quoted method for calculating sheet tension for a given wind speed and sail area must be very approximate or else must exclude close-hauled conditions. In the latter the mechanical advantage of the sheet as a means of flattening the jib becomes very low and consequently jib tension very high. as compared with when sailing freer.