Having spent 91 days in France in 2021, what happens next?

[Graham376]

That's just the same as anyone else though surely?

When I contacted the EU, the reply was that anyone with residence can spend as long as they like in their country of residence but limited to 90 days elsewhere except that days in transit through Schengen states to/from country of residence don't count towards the 90 days. Whether they would accept slow coastal sail to/from has yet to be seen

 

[steve yates]

When I contacted the EU, the reply was that anyone with residence can spend as long as they like in their country of residence but limited to 90 days elsewhere except that days in transit through Schengen states to/from country of residence don't count towards the 90 days. Whether they would accept slow coastal sail to/from has yet to be seen

Yes, I get that, but what Dom said was "a residence permit granted on the basis of an investor residence scheme ("golden visa") allows its holder to travel freely within the Schengen area for 90 days in any 180 day period. " which is what anyone else can do anyway? even spouses and dependants.

 

[syvictoria]

Yes, I get that, but what Dom said was "a residence permit granted on the basis of an investor residence scheme ("golden visa") allows its holder to travel freely within the Schengen area for 90 days in any 180 day period. " which is what anyone else can do anyway? even spouses and dependants.

Residency doesn't normally allow full FoM. The resident is free to spend the entire year in the country that (s)he is resident in, but they are still restricted by Schengen 90/180 rules elsewhere.

 

[greeny]

Golden visa scheme in Portugal gets the person residencia. It's used a lot by 3rd country people looking for residencia in European country. The Chinese have been big users of the scheme I believe. Residencia in Portugal allows you to stay 365 in Portugal and 90 in 180 in the rest of Schengen. I've seen nothing written anywhere to say the Golden visa scheme offers any more than that. Maybe Dom can direct us to where that information came from as it may be of interest and give another option to residence seeking expats.
If the Residencia is then "converted" to citizenship, that brings a passport and freedom of movement in Schengen I believe. AFAIK.

 

[Graham376]

Golden visa scheme in Portugal gets the person residencia. It's used a lot by 3rd country people looking for residencia in European country. The Chinese have been big users of the scheme I believe. Residencia in Portugal allows you to stay 365 in Portugal and 90 in 180 in the rest of Schengen. I've seen nothing written anywhere to say the Golden visa scheme offers any more than that. Maybe Dom can direct us to where that information came from as it may be of interest and give another option to residence seeking expats.
If the Residencia is then "converted" to citizenship, that brings a passport and freedom of movement in Schengen I believe. AFAIK.

Doubt there are any enhancements to freedom of movement but I think Golden Visa also has tax benefits which normal residence doesn't give.

 

[steve yates]

Residency doesn't normally allow full FoM. The resident is free to spend the entire year in the country that (s)he is resident in, but they are still restricted by Schengen 90/180 rules elsewhere.

Uh huh, I know, which is exactly the same as any normal residency. A golden visa gives no more rights when it comes to freedom of movement elsewhere in the schengen area than not having one.
We might be going in circles here, as you keep rpeating a point as it if answers what I said, but the way I read Doms post was that he states 90 in 180 days in other schengen countries as an advantage of a golden visa, which it is not. There may well be tax advantages but he doesn't mention them, and the thread is not about them.

 

[Laser310]

Residency doesn't normally allow full FoM. The resident is free to spend the entire year in the country that (s)he is resident in, but they are still restricted by Schengen 90/180 rules elsewhere.

but as a practical matter...

say i have residency in Portugal.., and I cross the border to spend a few weeks in Spain - what record will there be?

 

[lustyd]

A criminal record if you get caught illegally entering countries!

 

[syvictoria]

Uh huh, I know, which is exactly the same as any normal residency. A golden visa gives no more rights when it comes to freedom of movement elsewhere in the schengen area than not having one.
We might be going in circles here, as you keep rpeating a point as it if answers what I said, but the way I read Doms post was that he states 90 in 180 days in other schengen countries as an advantage of a golden visa, which it is not. There may well be tax advantages but he doesn't mention them, and the thread is not about them.

Sorry, I thought Dom's post re golden visa's had implied full FoM 365/365 in Schengen, not 90/180.

 

[Graham376]

but as a practical matter...
say i have residency in Portugal.., and I cross the border to spend a few weeks in Spain - what record will there be?

If you cross by boat and enter a marina, they notify authorities of your presence. If on anchor, you may very occasionally be boarded for paperwork inspection. By car or bus there's no record and if pulled for speeding, I doubt the police would be interested in anything but issuing a ticket. When anchored in the Guadiana, we dinghy ashore to either side daily and outside Covid restrictions, no-one's there to check.

P.S. I think hotels have to submit visitor details.

 

[dom]

Sorry, I thought Dom's post re golden visa's had implied full FoM 365/365 in Schengen, not 90/180.

It's 90/180 but there are many other advantages of a golden visa scheme of regular residency which is why so many are taking this option up. For example, the programme(s) offer immediate permanent residency so there's no messing around. Next, one can keep the residency going with as little as a 7-day holiday to that country per calendar year. Compare this to say France where British citizens never had to formally register. Henceforth visa status will depend upon whether one lived in France for more or less than 5-years and applicants will have to collect original documents such as tax bills, utility statements, etc., to prove their length of residence. Leave France for a trip without fully sorting status and one could return as a tourist! Then there are numerous favourable taxation advantages alongside fast-track routes to full citizenship if required.

Basically the countries offering golden visas - Greece, Portugal, Malta, Cyprus , etc. - want external investment and they therefore treat investors more favourably than regular applicants. So, say buy a little holiday house there, rent it out or Airbnb it, and you and your family are good to stay in that country with your boat as long or as little as you wish and spend 90/180 elsewhere in Schengen, pretty much from the off.

All will become clear within days now if not hours!!

 

[Graham376]

Golden Visa not an option for most and doesn't give immediate permanent residence -

The golden visa in Portugal is designed to encourage investment from non-EU/EFTA nationals. The Portuguese golden visa offers a fast-track to obtaining a residency permit in Portugal, alongside other benefits. This visa is for non-EU investors who invest a minimum amount as defined by law. .....
Portuguese golden visa holders receive a temporary residence permit for one year. Subsequent visa renewals last for two-year periods. After five years, golden visa holders can then apply for permanent residence in Portugal; after six years, they can apply for Portuguese citizenship.

 

[dom]

Golden Visa not an option for most and doesn't give immediate permanent residence -

The golden visa in Portugal is designed to encourage investment from non-EU/EFTA nationals. The Portuguese golden visa offers a fast-track to obtaining a residency permit in Portugal, alongside other benefits. This visa is for non-EU investors who invest a minimum amount as defined by law. .....
Portuguese golden visa holders receive a temporary residence permit for one year. Subsequent visa renewals last for two-year periods. After five years, golden visa holders can then apply for permanent residence in Portugal; after six years, they can apply for Portuguese citizenship.

According to a non-European friend of mine who has gone this route the extension after one year is pretty much a formality. So he made an investment and was basically good to go.

BTW I am not at all promoting these things It is just worth bearing in mind that, like Portugal, golden visas are offered by many EU countries, each with their own unique terms. Consequently, whether one wants to say buy another investment property, invest in government bonds, fund a new businesses, invest in a local private equity fund, or perhaps make a philanthropic donation, there are many options available to suit different budgets and interests. After which a ton of the problems people are worried about facing will simply go away.

A retired person in the UK may for example be happy to sell some of his/her UK Gilts, buy say Portuguese Government bonds, run or hedge the EURGBP risk, and away they go.

 

[Graham376]

You would need to get a hell of a good return on any investment to cover the costs -

The costs of getting a Portuguese golden visa include the following:

Processing fee (application and renewal): €514.80 (plus €80.20 per family member)

• Initial golden visa: €5,147.80
• Initial golden visa for family members: €5,147.80
• Renewal of golden visa: €2,573.90

More info here - Golden Visa Portugal: requirements and how to apply | Expatica

 

[dom]

Remember, that's just the Portuguese one. Also most of these charges are one off, so for a boat moving from the Hamble it would be mostly recouped in Yr 1 !

 

[Laser310]

All will become clear within days now if not hours!!

i kind of doubt these issues are at the top of the agenda for any deal negotiations.

but EU countries are free to unilaterally change their own residency rules - they don't have to get permission from the EU, or do it as part of a broader EU-wide policy.

therefore, the situation will probably not be clear anytime soon, if ever, and will be in constant flux

i think the individual countries will modify their own residency rules over time in ways that make sense for them - perhaps as part of bilateral deals with Britain, but given that British expats are more important economically to EU countries than EU expats are to Britain.., i think they will just change their rules in the cases where it makes sense to do so. Here I am talking about a certain kind of expat - people who don't want to work, so: second home owners.., yachties, retirees who's primary home will be in the country...

 

[Sea Devil]

i think the individual countries will modify their own residency rules over time in ways that make sense for them - perhaps as part of bilateral deals with Britain, but given that British expats are more important economically to EU countries than EU expats are to Britain.., i think they will just change their rules in the cases where it makes sense to do so. Here I am talking about a certain kind of expat - people who don't want to work, so: second home owners.., yachties, retirees who's primary home will be in the country...

It is possible, but hard work, to get a 6 month visa to stay in France if you are from a non EU country. That will apply to us next year.

I am a Spanish resident with a 2nd home in France. As things stand, next year I can only spend 90 in 180 days in France .... As I drive between the two countries I still do not know what I do in order to get my passport stamped out of France and into Spain and more importantly the reverse. When I sail my boat out of the French port I suspect I will have to clear customs and when I return I will clear in and have my passport stamped with entry date.. so it will be vital when I drive back to Spain where I am resident I get my passport stamped out of France .... but where?

When I fly to the USA I cannot do it direct from Malaga so I have to go via - Paris - Amsterdam etc and that involves a 1 day deduction from my 90 day allowance each way. In Transit takes a day out of a visa.

There is talk of the Portuguese introducing a special 180 day visa for UK 2nd home owners in Portugal.. If they do I am certain the Spanish and eventually the French will follow suit.. Maybe...

The problem folks like us, who want to remain in an EU country longer than 90 days at a go is that we are not tourists. For most holiday makers 3 months is fine for the summer as is 3 months for skiing in the winter.. So the money from tourism will not be greatly affected... For 2nd home owners and boat owners living aboard there will be a problem I think...

 

[Graham376]

It is possible, but hard work, to get a 6 month visa to stay in France if you are from a non EU country. That will apply to us next year.

I am a Spanish resident with a 2nd home in France. As things stand, next year I can only spend 90 in 180 days in France .... As I drive between the two countries I still do not know what I do in order to get my passport stamped out of France and into Spain and more importantly the reverse. When I sail my boat out of the French port I suspect I will have to clear customs and when I return I will clear in and have my passport stamped with entry date..

Transit travel to & from country of residence doesn't count towards the 90 days and with no border controls, how will the French know if or on what date you entered unless you tell the them? I've certainly no intention of seeking out officials when crossing to/from Portugal to Spain, which can be a daily occurrence by dinghy sometimes in summer.

Will be interesting to see what they do about logging boat movements. As well as those calling in on passage, expats throughout Europe will be going for thousands of day sails every year and I doubt every movement will have to be reported.

 

[Sea Devil]

Transit travel to & from country of residence doesn't count towards the 90 days and with no border controls, how will the French know if or on what date you entered unless you tell the them? I've certainly no intention of seeking out officials when crossing to/from Portugal to Spain, which can be a daily occurrence by dinghy sometimes in summer.
Will be interesting to see what they do about logging boat movements. As well as those calling in on passage, expats throughout Europe will be going for thousands of day sails every year and I doubt every movement will have to be reported.

Well changing planes in a EU airport, even via transit lounge, does and there is a notice to that effect already in Orly airport where you have to go through immigration on arrival from non EU country before you can board a EU internal flight.

The Spanish follow boats very effectively already. Every marina is obliged to give the list of arrivals to the Guardia Civil every evening and it is entered in to a computer... I have seen the track list of my boat from Santander to Ceuta. If the Spanish can write this software so can the French and Portuguese. When a Boarder force vessel enters an anchorage It only needs to inspect vessels with non EU flags.
I am sure it will be possible to fool some of the officials some of the time but not all = all of the time.
The penalty is to have your passport registered as not allowed to be used in the EU..... plus some sort of financial penalty. However I am sure that there will be solutions to these problems evolving over time....

 

[Graham376]

Well changing planes in a EU airport, even via transit lounge, does and there is a notice to that effect already in Orly airport where you have to go through immigration on arrival from non EU country before you can board a EU internal flight.

The Spanish follow boats very effectively already. Every marina is obliged to give the list of arrivals to the Guardia Civil every evening and it is entered in to a computer... I have seen the track list of my boat from Santander to Ceuta. If the Spanish can write this software so can the French and Portuguese. When a Boarder force vessel enters an anchorage It only needs to inspect vessels with non EU flags.
I am sure it will be possible to fool some of the officials some of the time but not all = all of the time.
The penalty is to have your passport registered as not allowed to be used in the EU..... plus some sort of financial penalty. However I am sure that there will be solutions to these problems evolving over time....

You've moved the goal posts, your previous posts stated you would be driving.