Have you had a letter from HMRC?

[jfm]

It also transpires that Yarmouth have already released my name and address back to HMRC...

Definitely do nothing Jimmy until/unless HMRC write to you. Let's see what they say then.

To be fair, they might have noticed your CI reg and asked HM "who owns that boat?". On seeing your UK address they might then have decided to write that letter. I mean, maybe it wasn't merely the CI flag in UK waters that made them write, rather it was a CI flagged boat owned by a UK person. Of course, in order for that to arouse their suspicion they'd have to be ignorant of the fact the flag has no connection with the boat's physical location, but they could easily be that ignorant

Definitely do nothing and await a letter from them

 

[jfm]

1 Why did HMRC wait two months and send you a letter rather than jump on the vessel and demand to see the documents there and then? If you couldn't produce them at the time they've presumably got a better chance of either seizing the vessel or of getting al the other information they want to prove your identity. If you can't produce the documents now what are they going to do?

I don't think that stacks up. They saw a UK name and address for the owner, and they took a chance the address in HM records might have been false, but they (correctly) guessed it wasn't. So they have all they need. In general, chances are the address is real and they can therefore pursue the owner if they want. They couldn't have seized the boat there and then nor would they be in any stronger a position if they'd boarded the boat and found out the owner had no documents on board. So I think their behaviour was fine, except (i) seems daft writing to HM rather than Jimmy Le Constructeur directly, and (ii) possibly, if they'd boarded the boat and been shown full documents they could have closed the enquiry there and then

 

[jfm]

the requirement to fill in a C1331 if going to the Channel Islands direct from the UK, and to fly a Yellow if returning directly from there.

FWIW I did a c1331 once (in 2004) when taking my boat to Jersey, handed it in at the collection box chichester marina, and never heard anything back from HMRC! Never done the yellow flag thing though!

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

FWIW I did a c1331 once (in 2004) when taking my boat to Jersey, handed it in at the collection box chichester marina, and never heard anything back from HMRC! Never done the yellow flag thing though!

Yup, in the old days, not only were you obliged to fly a yellow flag but you were not supposed to land anywhere until a Customs boat had checked you out. I did it the first time we went to the CI and sort of hung around in Soton Water waiting for the Customs to appear which they never did so I got fed up and went home. After that I never bothered to hang about

 

[MapisM]

they'd have to be ignorant of the fact the flag has no connection with the boat's physical location

Not necessarily. They could have just assumed:
1) CI flag = no VAT paid (most likely, though not in this case)
2) UK owner = VAT collectable
enuff for an enquiry, from their perspective.
Re. HM involvment, I agree that it seems a nonsense, but we shouldn't forget that from the fiscal authorities' viewpoint harbours are also a target, not just boaters...

 

[hlb]

Yes most HM's ask for Last port, home port, some times home address and phone number. I'd always put it down to, incase I left something, or did not pay.

I think I might have come from some where else now.

 

[jfm]

Not necessarily. They could have just assumed:
1) CI flag = no VAT paid (most likely, though not in this case)
2) UK owner = VAT collectable
enuff for an enquiry, from their perspective.
Re. HM involvment, I agree that it seems a nonsense, but we shouldn't forget that from the fiscal authorities' viewpoint harbours are also a target, not just boaters...

Yup, agreed, except I'd say "possibly" instead of "most likely"

Interesting part of this will be the follow up letter to JTB. What would be great is if JTB might (in the interests of research!) reply to HMRC along the lines "I bought the boat in the UK from a UK dealer, namely XYZ Ltd of [address] Southampton. The boat was in the UK when I bought it, and has been in the UK since, so I have not imported it into the UK. The boat is registered in Jersey, but as you will know that has no connection with the boat's physical location. Indeed I didn't register it there - I took over the previous owner's Jersey registration. In answer to your request for documents relating to my acquiring ownership I enclose copies of what I have, namely (i) the boat's registration certif (showing me as current legal owner) and (ii) the bill of sale (transferring ownership to me). I trust these give you what you need"

Ie, specifically NOT give them the VAT invoice. And see what they say. See if they ask for a VAT doc. I bet they don't.

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

To be fair, they might have noticed your CI reg and asked HM "who owns that boat?". On seeing your UK address they might then have decided to write that letter. I mean, maybe it wasn't merely the CI flag in UK waters that made them write, rather it was a CI flagged boat owned by a UK person.

Just a slight clarification on one point: the impression I got from the HM this afternoon was that she'd given names and addresses in response to the letter from HMRC a couple of weeks ago - ie _not_ at the time of the visit by the black rib.

It's a shame that they didn't just board me at the time - because as it happened I _did_ have all the papers on the boat, and we could have just seen this off then.

Cheers
Jimmy

 

[MapisM]

Yup, agreed, except I'd say "possibly" instead of "most likely"

Naaah, it's their assumption I was talking about, remember?
In this respect, I could have said "almost surely"...!

Interesting idea, that letter!
He could as well specify that "since the previous owner was an individual, I dildn't even bother checking what he did with VAT, 'cause that might have been your problem, not mine".

Go for it JTB, we're all looking forward to their reply!

 

[jfm]

Naaah, it's their assumption I was talking about, remember?

Umm, pedantically (!), no. Within the same sentence, you wrote "though not in this case". That's something only you, not the HMRC officers, knew. So I think it was ok for me to read it as your assumption. If you'd put the "(" before the "though", not before the "most", it would have read differently. Apologies for my extreme pedantry, and your English is 1000x better than my Italian, I do appreciate

Jimmy, if they ever board you, please please please do NOT show them your VAT-paid invoices etc. Same goes for anyone else please. Just show the registration and the BoS. We want to find out what they do if a boat owner cannot produce a VAT-paid invoice, but explains the purchase was done in UK, etc etc. Then we can answer this question about VAT-paid paperwork by reference to a real life example

 

[MapisM]

Oops, I see what you mean, I'm the one who should apologise.
And it's not a matter of language really... The way I wrote it fully entitled your understanding.
See? I'm also pedantic when appropriate, even with myself, aarumph!

 

[photodog]

I dont think that customs cruising marinas on the south coast and asking questions about boats showing a CI port of registry on the stern is anything new...

We had Guernsey on our Fairline 36 in Brixham a decade ago.... and had a letter...

IIRC we ignored it as we were on the point of selling anyways... didnt hear anything else.

 

[nicho]

1 Why did HMRC wait two months and send you a letter rather than jump on the vessel and demand to see the documents there and then?

Last year, sat on our (then) berth in Chichester Marina, a man and a woman, dressed in identical (red) sailing jackets, stopped and began talking to us. We assumed they were fellow boaters, but were rather surprised when they asked if they could come aboard!

Rather nonplussed we agreed, and it was then they showed us their ID - they were checking the VAT status of some of the boats in the marina. They were really only interested in boats with a value over £250K (ours was not, but I got the impression they were rather bored)

We made them a cuppa, whilst they looked through all our paperwork including proof of VAT and Bills of Sale.

They were very polite, and left after 15 minutes, and were seen walking up and down all the other pontoons making notes of the larger boats.

We never heard anything more, so not sure what it was all about.

 

[Whitelighter]

Why register in the CIs at all?

I remember when I last registered my boat it was a bit more hassle to do channel islands registry, though they didnt need something (maybe the tonnage survey?) but since nothing in the P1 registration is particularly arduous I didnt see the benefit.

So what is the point of a Jersey or Guernsey registration if you are living and boating in the UK? Is it just pose value, or is there some deeper reason I am missing?

 

[Searush]

I remember when I last registered my boat it was a bit more hassle to do channel islands registry, though they didnt need something (maybe the tonnage survey?) but since nothing in the P1 registration is particularly arduous I didnt see the benefit.

So what is the point of a Jersey or Guernsey registration if you are living and boating in the UK? Is it just pose value, or is there some deeper reason I am missing?

AFAIK an owner registers the boat where it is most convenient to him (her?) - mine is Poole registered. When the boat is sold on, the next & subsequent owners transfer the registration into their own name. So, if the boat was originally bought by a CI resident, it is logical it would be CI registered. Subsequent purchasers are unlikely to attempt to cancel the existing registration & reregister elsewhere - just far too much hassle & cost.

 

[jfm]

So what is the point of a Jersey or Guernsey registration if you are living and boating in the UK? Is it just pose value, or is there some deeper reason I am missing?

In JTB's case, the boat was already CI reg, so easier to keep it than change it.

But to answer your question in general, there is no point if you live in UK. The occasion when there is a point is if owner is a non EU resident (eg live in CI, or CH*) - then it is essential the boat is on a non EC registry in order for owner to bring it VAT-free (under the TI exemption, which is the usual one) within EU waters. This is just about the only case the registry of a boat has anything to do with VAT. *Our poster Mags is an example: he is CH resident so couldn't have brought his pred72 VAT-free to West Country for its shakedown cruises if it had been UK flagged, but he could under Cayman Islands flag

Erk, caution, this is turning into a VAT thread. Must refrain!

 

[U4]

This bit's got me mystified. I must have been to Yarmouth ten or fifteen times in the past few years and have never once been asked for anything other than the name of my boat when I paid for a mooring. No name, no address.... nuffink. I'm beginning to feel left out

The have a little hand held computer that they use to capture all of your information - they have had it for quite a while however sometimes they dont seem to bother using it.

 

[Eastermaid]

Suggestion

Just a suggestion but if you have all the relevant paperwork why not just supply them with the relevant proof of VAT.

All this discussion on how not to do it suggest there are a few people out there without such proof....

I haven,t do I need it on a 52 year old rag boat!!!

 

[goboatingnow]

the resigtry of the bost hsd no bearing on whether the owner is allowed TI relief, it helps the story but its not a requirement to be non EU flagged.

 

[timbartlett]

The have a little hand held computer that they use to capture all of your information ...

Which means that the Harbourmaster is bound by the constraints of the Data Protection Act. It would be fascinating to know what HMRC said to the Harbour Office to persuade the staff to part with personal information. And it would be even more fascinating to know whether it was actually true, or whether it was a typical civil service paraphrase of the law that conveniently misses out anything that limits their powers.

Just a suggestion but if you have all the relevant paperwork why not just supply them with the relevant proof of VAT.

Because a growing proportion of the public are becoming increasingly pissed off with an overbearing bureaucracy. Being english, we don't go round cutting their heads off, or lining them up against walls and shooting them. Nor do we fill our streets with cabbages or our harbours with fishing boats. We just let them get away with it.

All this discussion on how not to do it suggest there are a few people out there without such proof....

No it doesn't and nor should it make any difference. Time was when the accuser had to prove his case. Only in a police state is it up to the innocent to prove their innocence.