Have we been conned ..... ?

[Refueler]

I am very wary of the email and reply you post ... seems very sketchy detail.

You say that weather was mild and that you didn't knowingly create any damage.

I would be pushing Chart Co. to explain fully .. detail exactly their reasons for assuming you are the cause. Doubt very much you'll get any joy out of them and 600 smacks is a lot less than a Solicitor will charge.

It may be worth filing a Small Claims Court job ? seeing as it's UK charter ... ? I would certainly want to see the damaged articles and demostration of why liable.

 

[MarcoinLondon]

Sorry to be sketchy. It shows my knowledge and limited sailing experience. The reality is that I am puzzled how the damaged occured. Wind was never over 18 knots and the wind never caught the genoa in a big way which might have lead to the damage. We have experienced winds of 30+ knots in the Med without any incidents.

I think Small Claims Court is indeed a better place than talking to a random solicitor. I have approached the charter company to send me at least a detailed invoice of the repair.

 

[doug748]

Five minutes, with a couple of pairs of mole grips, would fix it.
If all you have said is correct, you have been turned over like a kipper (to mix my metaphors).
In your place I would be getting very cross.

 

[mjcp]

The charter co I use regularly are quite specific regarding any issues that arise:

1> talk to the skipper (if a skippered charter/instructional trip)
2> talk to the principle (they are an RYA training school)
3> talk to the RYA.

The above is in their Ts and Cs so forms part of the contract.

No idea if the RYA has a process for dealing with such issues but at least it shows they have thought about it and from a legal point of view shows they are open to 3rd party arbitration.

mjcp

 

[bedouin]

No way.

They are certainly trying it on and they should not be allowed to get away with it.

Possible actions:

(a) Ask to see a copy of the estimate. Then talk directly to the person giving the estimate to see why they think that it will cost that much.

or

(b) Get your own surveyor to look at the damage and give an assessment both as to the cause and the cost of repair.

Either way you should write to them saying that you do not accept that you caused the damage and you do not think that the estimate is reasonable.

Other thoughts
(c) What did the contract say about insurance? The boat must have been insured (otherwise what would have happened if it sank) so why is that not paying out? Did your contract say anything about your liability in the case of damage

(d) Do you have any form of legal costs cover on your household or car insurance policies? If so use that to talk to a solicitor.

 

[jonjo]

It shows my knowledge and limited sailing experience. The reality is that I am puzzled how the damaged occured. Wind was never over 18 knots and the wind never caught the genoa in a big way which might have lead to the damage.

Unfortunately this comment only serves to illustrate that you are unfamiliar with the potential problems when operating a furling genoa.

The damage sustained has nothing to do with maximum wind strength experienced when the sail is set. The things that damage furlers are too much or too little halyard tension, fuling line wraps or counter wraps in a loose furled sail.

I think you are being taken for a ride by the charter Co. and they are taking advantage of your inexperience. Even so you will not be able to convince the world that you operated the equipment properly based on your statements so far.

Edit: I find it strange the Charter Co. has not gone ahead and fixed this apparently serious problem on a commercial charter boat. This leads me to two conclusions:

1: They have got the thing working following 20 minutes work with a pair of mole grips.

2: They know they are on dodgy ground making this claim and they are testing for you response before ordering a nice piece of new kit for the charter boat.

 

[Plevier]

That seems excessive. It sounds like - or near to - the cost of a complete furler.
If your photo is absolutely as the boat was supplied to you, then the furling line was wrongly rigged. If you want a copy of the Facnor installation instructions PM me your email address and I can scan them for you as proof and send you a photo of my installation.
If the line had been correctly rigged through the loop, instead of between the loops as in your photos, then what happened should have been (almost) impossible even if you tried! I'm sure I understand what did happen - see my earlier post.
The wire loops are stainless and should be straightenable or easy to replace.
However if the lower "drum blade" i.e. the disc below where the rope spools up is badly bent (I can't see that a slight warp would matter at all) there's going to be significant labour to strip and replace the drum.
I think you must have been careless and should have realised something wasn't right, but they can't blame you for their wrong rigging that allowed it to happen.
Was the boat supplied with operating manuals or instruction given/offered? Weakens their case if not!

 

[Plevier]

Looking at your photos again, I can't see any significant distortion of the flange. Yes the edge is a bit rubbed but so what?

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

I know £600 is a lot of money but you may end up spending a lot more if you go down the route of employing a surveyor unless there is one prepared to give a 'tyre kicker' survey for a few quid cash to set you right on your theories. From there you could take it further or drop it.
I did this when looking at boats and for £60 my surveyor saved me the time, trouble and extra cash of having afull survey done on one particular boat.
You could get in touch with the yard and ask them to justify that large cost for repairs.
Problem is the charterers have got your deposit and could be 'hand in glove' with the yard so I don't hold out a lot of hope.
I think I would seriously consider dropping it now. The reason for this is that it will cause you a lot of effort and possible angst to get no where despite the fact it sounds as if you've been ripped off.
To name the charterer eventually, without making any slanderous accusations would be interesting though.

 

[jonjo]

You could get in touch with the yard and ask them to justify that large cost for repairs.
Problem is the charterers have got your deposit and could be 'hand in glove' with the yard so I don't hold out a lot of hope.

"Could".

I would bet money on that, it is a small incestuous world shoreside.

 

[graham]

Almost definitely caused by a loose bight of furling line managing to wrap itself around the guide then bending it when the line is pulled to roll up the sail.

IMHO that could have been straightened and put back on at very little (if any )cost.

 

[chriscallender]

This a quote from the email I received -
"The drum blades are bent up problem being they are alloy and when you try to straighten them they crack there is also evidence of grinding on base."

This sounds like complete and utter nonsense. The alloy in question is I believe stainless steel (316 most likely) which should be very straightforward for someone competent to bend back without cracking anything. "Evidence of grinding on the base" = a few scratches underneath, who cares....

Even if it did crack when someone took a pair of molegrips to it, it looks to me that it would be no big deal to remove the SS wire and get a new wire loop fabricated for a fraction of the cost of a furler.

If something like that happened on my boat, there is no way I'd be shelling out the best part of a grand for a new furler + fitting! And I bet it would look and work just the same afterwards.

Regardless of how it happened, or who is to blame, they are having a laugh if you ask me. Either they are clueless how to fix things efficiently, or someone did straigten it with a pair of molegrips, and they thought they would keep your 600 quid anyway.

 

[wotayottie]

If something like that happened on my boat, there is no way I'd be shelling out the best part of a grand for a new furler + fitting! And I bet it would look and work just the same afterwards..

But what would you be expecting if someone else did this damage to your boat.

The problem here is that the OP didnt see the damage and note it with the hirer when he took over the boat and inspected it, so the hirer can legitimately say it wasnt damaged when he took the boat over and the OP hasnt got an argument. Nor is it wear and tear.

However, just like with car hire companies and dents, my bet is that the hirer will bend this back straight and leave a proper repair until the end of the season if ever. To my mind the OP is entitled to see the invoice for the repair to see that the money has been paid out- not a quote.

The lesson top learn is to take a camera along and comprehensively inspect and photograph a boat before you take it over.

 

[pyrojames]

Using my 35' for a sense of scale I think that is 8mm line which is about right for the job.

Fed between the hoops, yes good point.

No it feeds back down the port side deck to a small grey pulley wheel attached to the pulpit upright. Note the black tape on the stainless upright which has been put there I suspect to give the grey plastic fitting more bite. Mine slips over times and needs to be realigned.

Given the lens perspective it is not possible to verify the angle of the lead. We should be in forensics!

I am in forensics, and wouldn't be prepared to reach any serious conclusion on the information from one party only. From the limited info available we have (and that YBW is a long way from serious):

2 photos of bent SS guards.
A reference to bent alloy "wings"
A claim for costs of £758
Comments from an agrived party.

Close examination of the photos gives some info, the bent SS guards (bent aft), possible scouring on the front edge of the SS guards, heavy scouring to the top edge of the alloy drum, close proximity of the anchor toggle/roller, a furling line which appears of suitable size and routed reasonably.

On the available info, the guards have been bent aft by some significant force. This is not readily achieved by the furling line, particularly as the OP make mention of the light conditions and makes no mention of the furler being difficult to use. The alloy flanges of the furler may have been bent (as per ref from Charter Co) and this would be consistent with the anchor snagging between the guards and the alloy of the drum. It is clear that the upper flange on the furler has been hit by something hard repeatedly in the past to cause the scouring damage. That has not occured by any furling activity and is most likely from the anchor or chain.

Conc. anchor has been pulled home and bent the furler. Liability? Well, leave that to the lawyers, but poor design/layout would have to be a contributing factor.

 

[haydude]

My question now is: Is it possible for the drum blades to bend in this way in moderate conditions and without any incidents? Have we been taken advantage of?

1) No the drum "blades" of "fairleads" (as I call them) are not supposed to bend if the furling sheet is correctly rigged and routed
2) Yes you have, because it is the charter company responsibility to supply you with an appropriately rigged yacht.

I have the same facnor furling system, the furling sheet shown in your picture was routed outside either of the leads, by doing so it is prone to slip out of the drum from the top, and eventually bend the fairleads when these get caught by the sheet under tension.

For a correct rigging the furling sheet is supposed to be routed THROUGH one of the fairleads (the one on the same side where the sheet routes through the bullseyes attached to the stanchions) which not only prevents the sheet from slipping out of the drum, but also guides the coiling around it.

Since the system appears to having been inappropriately rigged in the first place, and you are not supposed to know how every yacht you hire is correctly rigged, trusting that the charter company takes care of that, you cannot be held responsible for the damage caused by the incorrect rigging.

If you cannot get the charter company to agree to that, if you are in the UK I suggest to sue them using the small claim court:

http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/infoabout/claims/index.htm

In any case if that happened to me I would have "kicked" the thing back into shape to avoid any issue in the first place.

I hope this helps.

 

[haydude]

I've never before seen a roller reefing system without a rope giude fitted to ensure that the furling line feeds properly onto the drum.

The guide is actually the bit that bent, only the sheet was not properly routed THROUGH it.

 

[haydude]

. I have bent mine slightly to close the gap between the s/s cage and drum...obviously not as bad as yours but...QUOTE]

It sounds like yours too is incorrectly rigged. The furling sheet should run through one of the cages, there are two so you have choice to rig the sheet back to either side. When under tension the sheet should be clear of the "cage". The angle and position of the sheet can be adjusted by the height of the guide (sheave) attached to the pushpit, which should be fairly low towards the deck to counteract the drums' angle. The position of the "cage" or "fairlead" can also be adjusted by rotation around the drum.

 

[haydude]

First Money: I lost my £ 600 deposit. This a quote from the email I received -
"I am now in receipt of the yards estimate of repair which is part £758 plus vat ex Sailspar plus fitting at another circa £200 which means we will have to shell out the difference between your security deposit and the final bill."

Bent drum back in place: This a quote from the email I received -
"The drum blades are bent up problem being they are alloy and when you try to straighten them they crack there is also evidence of grinding on base."

You can tell them that I am availble to do the same job for £200 including VAT and materials.

Please also see my post on the other forum about UK Marinas Mafia.

I would take them to court.

 

[MarcoinLondon]

Thanks again for some really good advice. I take your comments with regards to rigging and bending back the alloy fully on board.

I emailed the Charter Co. on Tuesday and asked them to email me a copy of the invoice and quote from the yard. By the way I checked my diary and noticed the charter was in the weekend of Aug 1-2. Back practice to say the least. Surprisingly no reply or acknowledgement so far. Naming and shaming is not too far away I guess. When I evenually get the invoice I will discuss the case with a surveyor. Hey I might even show it on here.

Next step might well be Small Claims Court (many thanks for link Haydude).

 

[footsoldier]

A passing thought - before going down the solicitor/small claims route it might be worth your while to first check with Trading Standards in the area where you chartered. It may well be that this sort of sharp practice falls within their remit and they can pursue it at no cost to you. They can also tell you if there is any previous history with this firm.