Have I gone mad or am I in the wrong?

[PhatBuoy]

About to enter the channel for the Hamble river, myself and my father were admiring a fully race spec Sigma 38 approaching. Two of the (many) crew were positioned ready to drop the headsail. As the halyard was realeased (as the boat beat to windward) it soon became clear they were going to need the helmsman to luff up to aid them. This he did, almost T-boning a small motor yacht who had to turn a full 360 to avoid the collision. Worse was to follow. The Sigma under main only was coming up towards us at a rapid pace. (we had taken down canvass and were motoring towarsd the channel marks.) As the Sigma got closer and closer we realised that there was a good chance that it was going to pass us very close indeed. All of a sudden they were rounding up towards us A quick shout and suddenly the helmsmans head appeared ( He obviously had been starting the engine). It was all to late. We made an emergency turn to avoid the collision and a considered opinion was given to anybody who was listening on board the Sigma. A 'gentlemen' with a north American accent replied back that he was the stand on vessel and we were under engine which gave him the right of wayand we should learn the rules. As we motored round and back on course the Sigma then motorsailed on port tack across a yacht on starboard tack causing them to take avoiding action. All this happened within 3 or 4 minutes. Fantastic. By the time the Sigma motored past us the American was instructing 3 others on how to flake a kevlar main and didn't say too much.

Phew. After all that my question is this. I have taken yachtmaster exams but is there another course that I have missed explaining what the rules are on board a racing yacht??

Tom Cunliffe wrote a very good piece in sailing skills in this months issue of YM about making way for race yachts even when you have right of way and this is something I wholeheartedly believe in but I am not prepared to make way for stupidity.

The Sigma which displayed the RORC initials on its stern did that fine establishment no favours, but that another issue. Theyacht will remain nameless until someone asks me! The really annoying thing was that the motorboat shrugged off the attempted T-bone as if this was a regular thing in his boating life. Are yachties really that bad?

 

[JeremyF]

In the interest of fairness its great to get an example of yottie crassness, verging on dangerous behaviour. So often stinkies think they are being got at, when its crassness that's being complained about, not the fact that they've not got sails.

We all make mistakes, me more than many, but your example goes well beyond that. One of the reasons I keep away from the Hamble, and choose to moor in Gosport, is that there seems to be more aggressive yottie behaviour in the Hamble. Some seem to think that the race is still underway up the Hamble channel!

Jeremy Flynn

 

[PhatBuoy]

Cannot agree more. Used to keep boat at Mercury and was going back there for the first time in ages. Get past Hamble Point and things return to some form of sanity and it was good to see yachts under sail being given the right treatment from other craft higher up river.

 

[DepSol]

Go on then what was the name

Dom

I am boating again ;-)

 

[steve_cronin]

It\'s very difficult...

.. to get an idea of the exact juxtapositions of the craft involved as well as rtheir speeds from what you have written.

That particular piece of water was my regular playground for 7 years and I know it as well as the next man, im think.

One could say that on seeing "...a fully race spec Sigma 38 approaching." (was he approaching from astern, also returning to the Hamble?) under sail then you as the motorboat? should have kept out of his way in all circumstances and been ready to anticipate any move he was likely to make. On the other hand was it sensible of him to enter a crowded and narrowing river entrance and expect to take it all up in his (seemingly fussy) sail handling manoeuvres with the arrogant "we are the real business around here bud so get out of my way" attitude. Some US harbours ban entry under sail and at the biggest, Marina del Rey near Long Beach, you can get charged an on the spot fine or even imprisoned for it! - that wouldn't go down well with the Solent purists.

My own view was that with such a crowded and popular entrance, possibly with the cadets running a Saturday evening race just past the point that it was the most SEAMANLIKE thing to do to get one's sails safely flaked & tied and the fenders down outside Hamble Spit buoy. Boring and not as macho as beating all the way up to Warsash I know but then I did it that way on most Saturdays and on returns from places like Brest, L'aberwrac'h and LeHavre in filthy weather as well as from jolly romps around the cans off Spithead. I did used to sail right up to Port Hamble on some occasions but they were mostly on out of season weekdays. It was just personal choice.

Sorry I can't say that you were right (which you probably were) but it is difficult to visualise from your description alone.

Steve Cronin

 

[DanTribe]

Re: It\'s very difficult...

Steve
Do I understand you to be saying that an overtaking vessel, because it's under sail, has right of way over a power vessel in all circumstances?
If thats the case I've misread the the regs for many years.
Dan

 

[PhatBuoy]

Re: It\'s very difficult...

Steve,
Sigma approaching from astern, first motorboat also entering hamble on same course as Sigma and technically should have given way as they were overtaking the Sigma, but as you rightly point out sudden luff directly into path of motorboat not very seamanlike. We were motoring (just dropped all sails before entering channel) up towards Hamble point spit with Sigma approaching from behind. They were the overtaking vessel. We were motoring at 4 knots they were approaching circa 7 knots.

Hope thats slightly clearer. Still fuming so details tend to be lost!

 

[Guest]

Re: It\'s very difficult...

Also as I recall, stand on vessels are required to maintain course and speed.

 

[Guest]

Baby on Board

Is what I tell myself whenever I get near one of these 'all out' racing children and make the automatic allowances . The type of situation that you describe is probably replicated many times over in the U.K at weekends and there is very little option but to accept it.

Reluctantly, I agree with Steve that in many places now at weekends, you just have to take the sails down and start motoring. On the East Coast I now do this in the Orwell, Crouch and Colne. The near misses only put our lady wives off sailing.

I think most of us are not against racing at all ( I have a go myself now and then) but the modern racer does not have the emotional stasis to cope.

I made the huge mistake of crewing for a 'serious' racer this year in the Old Gaffers, many of whom I would mention are no spring chickens.I was appalled at what I heard and saw . The joke is, apart from the winners, everyone seemed as miserable as sin at the end of the races.

Thinks............................. we get much more pleasure out of it than they do. I keep that thought with me and now feel sorry for the poor sods.

 

[Mirelle]

No, it\'s not so difficult

Steve, are you suggesting that the overtaking rule is secondary to the power and sail rule? The IMO and the MCA will be rather surprised!

The Sigma was in the wrong in several respects. ]

First, she was the overtaking vessel, and under an absolute obligation to keep clear until finally past and clear.

Second, she was not keeping a proper lookout.

Third, she was not under proper control

Fourth, when she started her engine, she failed to make it clear that she was motorsailing.

That should do to be getting on with.

My advice to Phatbuoy is to write a letter to the Secretary of the RORC, cc the Editor of YM.

 

[Mirelle]

Hey! I have a Baby on Board

7 months old at the moment and he certainly does not interfere with our helmsmanship or lookout, although his elder brother shot up the companionway and castigated his mother most severely for ignoring the baby and letting him cry, as we twiched our way over the Deben bar!

No seriously, I don't go as far as motoring in the rivers; I even sail in the Deben, given any sort of a slant.

I missed this years OGA Race and I am sorry if things are going in that direction. We usually have a very pleasant race, firmly in the middle of the fleet.

 

[Guest]

Fifth...

Fifth, failing to maintain course and speed with respect to the first motorboat, when the Sigma was the stand on vessel (being overtaken by the motorboat).

Sixth, talking with a North American accent... (oops)

 

[steve_cronin]

You obviously read more than I did....

Thanks for jumping down my throat. That is the all too prevalent response on this and other BB's , not to mention a sad feature of modern life that everyone is trying to score against others.

I was merely asking for clarification. it was NOt stated that the Sigma was indeed an overtaking vessel. If you know that particular piece of water you will be aware that in "the approaches to the Hamble CHANNEL.." it is possible for another yacht to be approaching one from one of several points. It was my surmise that if they were admiring the Sigma then perhaps it wasn't in an overtaking position. Please don't assume that I don't know my rule of the road therefore. As I said, from what we were told, ALONE, it is not totally clear what the position was. As to the IMO and the MCA being "...rather surprised..." I wonder why you think they would be interested in me?

The main theme of my post was to condemn sailing in on crowded waters at inappropriate times.

Steve Cronin

 

[steve_cronin]

On reading it again....

Yes it DOES read like that.

Problem is I spend too much time on these BB's and often don't get time to proof read!!

Sorry if it sent you round in circles.

Steve Cronin

 

[Col]

Re: You obviously read more than I did....

Steve, you come across as a resonable sort of skipper, I like your attitude to sailing in confined waters (ie motoring)
I am also on the Hamble, and I can never understand the mentality of those (Thankfully few) skippers who insist on goosewinging up the river, in little wind, causing all sorts of problems. Why do they insist on doing this?
Its a bit like a caravanner in the centre lane of the M25 doing 30MPH !!
Fair enough on a quiet weekday, but on a busy weekend?
Interested in views/ reasons from you yotties.
(Yes I know they might have engine failure)
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.arweb.co.uk/argallery/colspics> Cols Picture Album</A>

 

[Guest]

Re: You obviously read more than I did....

I was on the Hamble only 4 times last year, 3 times on the water moving a 43 footer either in or out and once at the Royal Southern for a wedding reception. In each case I witnessed the most appalling seamanship from both yotties and motorboaters. I was verbally abused by boaters who had obviously never heard of the ColRegs yet alone read them and as you say Col to see yachts goosewinging up the Hamble on a Sat afternoon shouting to all to give them right of way then to turn put the engine on and moter onto a mooring was unbelievable (I witnessed such an event). No I'm glad I dont sail in the Solent to many nutters down there for anyones good.

 

[Col]

Re: You obviously read more than I did....

A few months back, I was talking about a swapsies day with JeremyF, this hasn't happened yet, mainly due to a few mechanical problems on my part, which has kept me off the water for several weeks, but I fuly intend to try this.
(Are you still up for it J.F.? Prob 3-4 weeks before re-launch)

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.arweb.co.uk/argallery/colspics> Cols Picture Album</A>

 

[adarcy]

Re: Hamble

Actually there is a byelaw that says if you have an engine you MUST use it above the Harbourmaster's office
Now I agree that it is nice to see a well handled yacht gliding up under sail on a quiet weekday ( and I speak as a powerboater)
but but but - the b*****ds who tack up on a sunny Sunday afternoon with anything up to 60 boats of all sorts behind all shifting into fwd neutral reverse and ditto ditto. I shall refrain from further comment!

BTW Unless I am much mistaken, in which case I will humbly apologise, there is NOTHING absolutley nothing in the Colregs about racing :- so why the hell do they think they have any priority, apart from obviously thinking they are superior beings?