Captain Crisp
Well-Known Member
I think the LSH route works more neatly with the tides and shipping lanes? Not much in it in terms of distance I think.
Harwich to Ostend - shipping lane question
- Thread starter Captain Crisp
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tillergirl
Well-Known Member
Pyefleet - Spitway - SW Sunk - Fisherman's Gat - straight to edge of the TSS saves 10nm via LSH. But I haven't through through the tides. What tide do you want Capn at the edge of the TSS?
Captain Crisp
Well-Known Member
Well, my current LSH plan (which I'll probably stick to) sees me reach the edge of the TSS at slack water and then helps push me towards Ostend and avoids wind against tide. Hopefully arriving in time for lunch!
MikeBz
Well-Known Member
As well as saving distance the SW Sunk route means you pass south of the end of the LSH TSS, but I haven’t looked at tidal effects. I guess arriving at LSH at LW mitigates the extra distance to a degree by taking the ebb up the wallet.
tillergirl
Well-Known Member
When are you going Capn? I suppose I could make up some tables this week. My brain is suffering from wedding anniversary syndrone but I might recover. What estimated boat speed (aka STW)?
Captain Crisp
Well-Known Member
Hi that's very kind of you, but I'm off this evening so it would be purely for academic interest!
I like the simplicity of the LSH route and it'll work well with the West wind forecast.
I'm going to stick to my LSH route this time - will report back on timings etc. Hoping to average 6kts... In my 58yr old Twister...
We'll see!
tillergirl
Well-Known Member
Yes, got to do NtM's tonight - not that there is many this week. Actually there is only one UKHO notice and that is about the LSH! 11.8m in the Two-Way route - ( suspect that won't worry you! 
)
6kts without tide? I might make up a table; Garth Cooper (ECP and North Sea Pilot) fancies some tables.
) 6kts without tide? I might make up a table; Garth Cooper (ECP and North Sea Pilot) fancies some tables.
Captain Crisp
Well-Known Member
Thinking 6kts with the tide, given the predicted F4 westerly and the boat's extremely clean hull...Yes, got to do NtM's tonight - not that there is many this week. Actually there is only one UKHO notice and that is about the LSH! 11.8m in the Two-Way route - ( suspect that won't worry you!
6kts without tide? I might make up a table; Garth Cooper (ECP and North Sea Pilot) fancies some tables.
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
The Stella class used to race to Ostend every year from Burnham & it was found to be the fastest route.
I recall the first time I wanted to go abroad & Sony Cole of Tucker Brown took me aside & asked me what way I was going to go. I described my passage plan across the sands & through the then navigable Edinburgh Channel, or through one of the Gats (which seemed a bit small in those days). He was shocked & gave me a ticking off. He said "I never want to hear of you doing that" He then instructed me of the LSH route & what lightships & what buoys to use as route checks on the way. How to aim for the W Hinder & how to use the tides & watch the direction of shipping so I knew how far along the course I was.
It was a lesson from a master & I have followed it ever since. It really is a milk run for the beginner
We got hopelessly lost the first time in fog & got mixed up in a French fishing fleet.
We saw a boat & went to ask the way & it turned out to be Polaris from Burnham who told us we were at Nieuport & pointed to Ostend.
But after the 3rd trip I could hit Ostend on the nose every time.- Easy
I recall the first time I wanted to go abroad & Sony Cole of Tucker Brown took me aside & asked me what way I was going to go. I described my passage plan across the sands & through the then navigable Edinburgh Channel, or through one of the Gats (which seemed a bit small in those days). He was shocked & gave me a ticking off. He said "I never want to hear of you doing that" He then instructed me of the LSH route & what lightships & what buoys to use as route checks on the way. How to aim for the W Hinder & how to use the tides & watch the direction of shipping so I knew how far along the course I was.
It was a lesson from a master & I have followed it ever since. It really is a milk run for the beginner
We got hopelessly lost the first time in fog & got mixed up in a French fishing fleet.
We saw a boat & went to ask the way & it turned out to be Polaris from Burnham who told us we were at Nieuport & pointed to Ostend.
But after the 3rd trip I could hit Ostend on the nose every time.- Easy
tillergirl
Well-Known Member
If I did a table I would build in the tide and thus you would be having the tide twice. Hence I asked STW - 5kts average STW with a Twister?Thinking 6kts with the tide, given the predicted F4 westerly and the boat's extremely clean hull...
DB - I am not surprised they told you not to go via the Edinburgh!
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
As a newbie in 1969/70 you would see that Fishermans gat was not buoyed. The northern edingburgh channel was full of buoys so was a way past the end of the black deep. So having crossed the southern end of the Sunk it seemed a natural way to go. The course to the Sunk was littered with buoys along the SW end of the Swin so one just played pinball to get there. Well that was the theory anyway.
Then it would be a straight line hitting the french belgian coast at a shallow angle . Hopefully with the wind & tide up the chuff. Navigation from there should have been easy as one would just turn right a bit until one could see land'
Lots of lights at night on the way as well.
Do not forget I had never had any training & only got the boat in 1968 having never sailed anything bigger than 17ft 3ins before
Well that was the theory anyway & we were just out to have ago. My 2 crew had never sailed before.
But it is how one learns. Just do it.
LittleSister
Well-Known Member
I crossed to the Netherlands in a friend's boat mid 80s (pre GPS). We were sailing vaguely in company with another boat that was well ahead of us.
They called us on VHF to say they couldn't find the West Hinder Light Vessel (I think it was) so weren't sure where they were. We inspected our chart etc. and were able to inform them it had been moved from where they were expecting to find it. Turned out their chart was so old it still showed minefields!
Captain Crisp
Well-Known Member
Yes 5kts STW, thanks
tillergirl
Well-Known Member
Ah yes. The awful North Edinburgh.
DSC30019 by Roger Gaspar, on Flickr
Capn Crisp - I reckon I have just identified you by the local .......? Twister + Crisp + East Mersea +........... I shall work up a table - using tide diamonds 'over the other side' is going to be a bit of a pain [different datums] but not insurmountable.
DSC30019 by Roger Gaspar, on FlickrCapn Crisp - I reckon I have just identified you by the local .......? Twister + Crisp + East Mersea +........... I shall work up a table - using tide diamonds 'over the other side' is going to be a bit of a pain [different datums] but not insurmountable.
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
A capable Twister should make 6kts STW OK with a decent wind & a clean hull
Years ago I came up with a table which I added to over time. I put Dover times along the top & then put a line at the departure time & run it down through the tableoposite each set of tides & dover at the top. I just estimate my speed & the line comes out the bottom where I expect to be. Then I can see how the tides affect me. I interpolate mentally by looking for springs & neaps . If I cannot be bothered to use the bearings the arrows give me a rough idea of direction. I have these as usually I am seasick & I just want something to glance at quickly. I have since modified it to put a diamond near Cadsand
I put local tide height/time in the space at the bottom right
I do one for all my trips & keep them as records of best departure arrival times
Not sure where I got the idea from But I have had it for years
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Captain Crisp
Well-Known Member
Had an amazing crossing! Absolutely pelted up the wallet and zoomed across the Black Deep under a starry sky.
For some reason (probably connected to a dodgy compass...) went way too far West coming down to Ostend, but was rescued by the very strong current which brought us back to Ostend.
Really brilliant experience.
Many thanks for all the advice... Now need to get back...
For some reason (probably connected to a dodgy compass...) went way too far West coming down to Ostend, but was rescued by the very strong current which brought us back to Ostend.
Really brilliant experience.
Many thanks for all the advice... Now need to get back...
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
How long from leaving Pyfleet to entering Ostend Harbour?
Captain Crisp
Well-Known Member
I'm ashamed to say that despite rarely falling below 6kts and spending a good deal of time at 7kts, it took us 15 hrs... We made LSH ahead of schedule, in 2 3/4 hrs, that bred a certain complacency which resulted in my not realising that we had drifted ridiculously far West - I think my compass may be out by a significant margin...
But a great time was had by all!
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
I think that 15 hours is a commendable time.
As for heading west I find that I tend to luff on the waves & do not actually steer 127 degrees but more like 135-140 which means I end up having to bear off if I am not careful.
It is why you have to look for Garden City & Twin Buoys to get you back on track
But better up tide than down
As for heading west I find that I tend to luff on the waves & do not actually steer 127 degrees but more like 135-140 which means I end up having to bear off if I am not careful.
It is why you have to look for Garden City & Twin Buoys to get you back on track
But better up tide than down
Dulcinea East
Member
We have just done the trip from the Orwell to Nieuwpoort (highly recommended) and return via Dunkirk (not recommended at all). Although I consulted the North Sea Passage Pilot and Imray chart, we decided to take the diagonal route rather than going down the shipping lane and then taking a dogleg across. The weather deteriorated quite badly in the last 3rd and it was a very lumpy F7 (forecast was only F5!) which did not impress the first mate who has only ever done river/estuary coastal sailing. But our Westerly Oceanquest just ploughed through the swell and behaved very well with 3 reefs in main and jib. Nieuwpoort more than made up for the discomfort. The very friendly police came to the pontoon the following morning with a bunch of leaflets, anecdotes and insights to the town/places to eat/visit as well as the obligatory passport stamps. I can't see that happening in the UK. Costs for mooring were excellent (€14 per night) due to reciprocal arrangements with Fox's/TransEurope Marinas network. Bonus extra was a lift and wash for about 50% of UK costs €120). The lift comes out on a gantry over the edge of the wall which was vertiginous when stepping off, but here the FM has an advantage over me and he was happily jumping off the deck across what felt like a 100 foot drop.
As the FM wanted shorter journeys on the return we then went to Dunkirk. BTW, there is an error in NSPP, there's no port control at Dunkirk any more, so don't bother trying to call. If Garth is reading this, please can you amend. Having spent silly money to go to the car ferry port to get an exit stamp (!!) we then cut across to Ramsgate for the evening. On leaving Ramsgate I called ahead to confirm that, yes, VTS would like a call before crossing Black Deep, they were v helpful. There is a cable laying ship near the wind farm and the guard ship was obviously bored because he was calling all and sundry to warn us to stay at least 0.5 miles away, fair enough, but given we were 3 miles off and heading away, it seemed a bit pointless. I would not be happy about doing these passages across the shipping lanes without an AIS transponder. It didn't stop us keeping a sharp lookout but gave additional comfort; it was very positive to hear big ships communicating proactively with yachts about intended actions and making course adjustments. Less encouraging was having to listen to a lot of dreadful English and incoherent VHF prowords/directions from so-called professional seafarers. The patience of the various VTS teams was admirable. Expect all four seasons of weather in one day, including heavy mist, and you should be fine. It was a fitting end to the trip to return to the Orwell with warnings of unexploded ordnance and dire warnings to stay "well clear of the cordon" (no explanations offered). We kept hard over to the port side of the channel and could see various emergency service workers doing their thing. I had hoped to see a controlled explosion but alas, no such luck
As the FM wanted shorter journeys on the return we then went to Dunkirk. BTW, there is an error in NSPP, there's no port control at Dunkirk any more, so don't bother trying to call. If Garth is reading this, please can you amend. Having spent silly money to go to the car ferry port to get an exit stamp (!!) we then cut across to Ramsgate for the evening. On leaving Ramsgate I called ahead to confirm that, yes, VTS would like a call before crossing Black Deep, they were v helpful. There is a cable laying ship near the wind farm and the guard ship was obviously bored because he was calling all and sundry to warn us to stay at least 0.5 miles away, fair enough, but given we were 3 miles off and heading away, it seemed a bit pointless. I would not be happy about doing these passages across the shipping lanes without an AIS transponder. It didn't stop us keeping a sharp lookout but gave additional comfort; it was very positive to hear big ships communicating proactively with yachts about intended actions and making course adjustments. Less encouraging was having to listen to a lot of dreadful English and incoherent VHF prowords/directions from so-called professional seafarers. The patience of the various VTS teams was admirable. Expect all four seasons of weather in one day, including heavy mist, and you should be fine. It was a fitting end to the trip to return to the Orwell with warnings of unexploded ordnance and dire warnings to stay "well clear of the cordon" (no explanations offered). We kept hard over to the port side of the channel and could see various emergency service workers doing their thing. I had hoped to see a controlled explosion but alas, no such luck