Hardtop boats! Whats the Point???

[hlb]

Were's the point it throwing a 40ft boat about in the open sea. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif It's not like theres a load of bends to go round.

Why have a 40ft boat, thats only fit for weekends, or days out.

Think you've answered it all. Bloody crap, crap, crap. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[MapisM]

None

[ QUOTE ]
when you go over say 35', is having a HT not just a waste of space?

[/ QUOTE ]Yes.
The answer to your question is as simple as that.

Any different view is biased either by:
- interest in selling HT boats, or
- attention to form and fashion over function, or
- lack of experience

 

[Nautical]

Just like having an M5 or sports car then, no bloody point cus a heapo junk morris minor will still go from A to B /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Do you really have a boat as a mode of transport? nah you have a boat cus its a passion and a hobby same as people who love cars, you know its inefficient and a technical waste of money but your a human being and are more than a sum of anotomical parts designed to eat, sleep and poo!. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Nautical]

Re: None

Crickey me, you're right ! ..... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Renegade_Master]

Hi Trev yes with ragard to "Fun Handling" a 36ft SC on sterns will be far more exciting than a 36ft FB on shafts. My friends Targa 37 again my old F36 spring to mind. In the Med an open SC makes sense for fun trips out.

When it comes to longer passage making and heavier seas, I would say the 36ft FB shaft comes into its own

 

[MapisM]

Re: None

[ QUOTE ]
Crickey me, you're right ! ..... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]Yeah, yeah, I know...
But AlistaiR made a simple question, hence my simple answer.
He didn't ask if there is a wide selection of HT boats to choose from - obviously there is.
He didn't ask if HT boats sell well - obviously they do.
See, in fact the second of my previous examples of "biased views" affects most HT buyers.
Not to mention that many are also affected by the third...
The only real functionality which most people associate with HT boats - better performance - is actually just theory.
Many HT boats have performances which are comparable with sporty flybridges.
And even when they do have 3 or 5 kts of additional max speed, in daily usage they are mostly cruised in the typical mid 20 range. Which is what each and every planing boat can do, also because the sea rarely allows much more.
Those who really want to test the resistance of their own (and their boat's) back, smashing waves at 50+kts, usually follow a different route - i.e. Magnum, which are, not by chance, real open boats.
Unless they fall in the third of my previous cases, of course.
Oh, btw - don't you fall in the first of them?... /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[Nautical]

Re: None

Ok so you have a point (to a degree /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif) but I disagree that HT's are pointless past 35', in fact they make alot of sense depending on what you want to do with your boating.

On a personal level I have driven just about everything going ( I am such a hero /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif) and for me boating is not just about going from A to B the most practical way possible, I want to have fun too, now of course it depends on what you deem as fun, for you perhaps its steady progress, economical fuel burn and the maximum amount of space per foot for livaboard and a jolly fine thing too if thats your bag. Me, I am flash twit and can't help acting the Mick and jumping off wakes and general twerpish stuff even when transiting distance from one port to another. I haven't driven a flybridge past 40' yet that gives you that thrill especially up top it just seems unnatural and the boat doesn't really want to play, it does it but its not a whole heap of fun really.

With a HT SC you (to me) get best of both, sheltered helm when needed yet a good bit of zip and tom foolery when you get bored. The best of the HT bunch can mix it with the lumpy stuff too and because they handle so nimbly you can pick your way through the bigger stuff.

Some (not all) FB are a sheer bloody pain in really bad stuff, you have to drop the speed down to a slow cruise and then the bow goes all stellar and the vision ahead is pants, the only way to get a good view and helm safely is up top where its all rock and roll and you get soaked and freezing cold.

Mrs N like quite a few people won't go up on a flybridge, she hates the motion and because the rails are so low she feels very insecure when walking about so she is left either sitting in the cockpit under way where she can't see anything forward or in the helm seat below on her own (cus the saloon seating is so low compared to the screen she still cant see anything for'd).

Now on our new 52 HT /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif she is as happy as Larry, much less rolling about, she can see forward from the saloon seating while underway, with the glass roof it is bright and airy way beyond 90% of FB's and with the roof open its nice and fresh but you are not blown buffeted to kingdom come. When it gets chilly push button, close roof, close patio doors aft, hit heating button and we are in our front living room! , she can even watch fav soap on Sat TV while bombing along not to mention make butties and cups of tea cus the galley and saloon is all on one level.

Of course we are bombing along at 26 knts in a 52' yacht with just twin 435 hp engines so I am monster happy too cus I am saving a packet on fuel over a flybridge boat of 52' not mention its super quiet.

Item one of your list..... if you mean the most fuel efficient, sexy, practical and fastest HT SC's er, well yes /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif but I have always believed in giving the client what he wants and today my clients want the best handling, most practical, gorgeous, fuel efficient boats around so really I suppose I am serving an emotional and deep seated need within my fellow boaters /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif I understand they give medals for that sort of thing these days /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Nautical]

Re: None

Hey up! as if by magic, talking of HT's , just got the pics this pm from our latest launching, the first one in all white.

why would anyone want to put a flybridge on top of this, surely even the most hardened FB advocate can see the beauty and symmetry in this.

She has the bigger MAN's and KaMeWa jets so good for 55 knts, bit scary doing that sort of speed on a flybridge 55' spesh hammering it into the corners /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

 

[MapisM]

None (well, almost)

Of course there's nothing wrong in serving customers' needs, even when they are, as you correctly say, emotional.
And after all, 'emotional' is just a different, albeit more elegant and synthetic, way to say 'attention to form and fashion over function', innit?

But - as I understood - the original question was about practicality and space efficiency, and these aren't emotional concepts.
AlistairR said "if you want the wind in your hair buy a Sportscruiser or a flybridge, and if you want an enclosed helm, buy a fly and get all the entertaining room upstairs for free".
Now, according to both my direct experience and to some opinions I heard from fellow moboers, that's exactly the way it is.
Mind, one of these gentlemen is waiting for the next season a brand new Pershing 72, one of those beasts that you included in your previous photo list. But he honestly admits that (in his words): "there were plenty of more proper boats available for the same or even less money, but I simply felt in love with her".
Which is fine, of course!

Personally, I'd just raise a little bit the size where a decent FB can be obtained without compromizing too much on layout, stability and other issues - let's say above 40'-42'. But other than that, I fully agree with the considerations of the initial post.
I'm sure you'll also agree that the differences which you mention between SC and FB (rolling, pitching, motion in general) are inversely related to the boat size. I can hardly imagine anyone complaining about comfort when cruising at 26kts on a Manhattan 52 if compared to the Absolute, just to make an example...

There's one point where I can accept that HT boats have a point, though (aside from the emotional part).
And that's even more valid when boating in cold weather is not as rare as down here in the Med.
If you really don't care about the additional space and usability of the FB, but you still want a sheltered helm, then even the worst HT is way safer, easier and quicker than the better canvas.

 

[LAMBADA]

Re: None (well, almost)

Some interesting points made in this post but for me the key to success in a HT is down to the size of the sunroof. Iv'gone from a Princess V42 to a V45 HT and have to say there are no negatives only positives but the greatest gain is the harmony between SWMBO and myself no more arguing about canvas. I did have reservations about the lack of wind in hair (whats left of it) but due to the big sunroof it doesn't feel much different to my (wonderful) V42. Don't want to get too involved in a FB v SB debate but we entertain quite a lot usually with up to 12 on the boat and find that the cockpit on a SC is so much better than entertaining on a FB where everyone just seems to get split up ie. some up top some down below and with the roof closed and rear canvas on it's just like a big conservatory. Anyway each to their own. Just keep floating!

 

[Nautorius]

I think it depends on who is mainly on board and what type of boating you do. With Youngsters the Hard Top makes a lot of sense. Less time fiddling with Canvas, better protection from the Sun and rain and yet you can still pop your head out. It makes the boat so much more usable in the UK. It does not leak like a sieve, it gives protection and just is easier to use.

The downside is the extra weight (and roll at anchor), the extra cost and the feeling of driving a car. The Missus feels flybridges are dangerous for young ones, I like sportscruisers. The Hard Top is a compromise for all the right reasons.

In pre kids days I would have an open sportscruisers. With young kids I have a Hard Top. In future years who knows???

Cheers

Paul /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Alistairr]

Re:

[ QUOTE ]

Hey up! as if by magic, talking of HT's , just got the pics this pm from our latest launching, the first one in all white.

why would anyone want to put a flybridge on top of this, surely even the most hardened FB advocate can see the beauty and symmetry in this.

She has the bigger MAN's and KaMeWa jets so good for 55 knts, bit scary doing that sort of speed on a flybridge 55' spesh hammering it into the corners /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that the new Absolute 70, Trev?
Cause it doesn't look like it says Absolute on the side.

And yes she does look stunning. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Cheers

Al.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Agreed Haydn. I cannot understand why the ability to throw a boat around as if you're playing boy racers is deemed a necessary attribute of any boat. I've chartered small boats and RIBS from time to time and I get tired of jumping wakes and scaring my crew after about 5 mins. Then all I want to do is to get from A to B as comfortably as possible so, for me, whether a boat does'nt slam into a head sea or fall over itself in a following sea is far more important

 

[AdeOlly]

Having youngsters aged 3 and 1 I agree with you 100% Paul. We find we get much more use with our HT than with the pure SC we had before, though to be fair the Seawings is a far far better sea boat than the S24. The HT is a nicer experience being less hassle and more comfortable.
What canvas we have takes two minutes to open up/put away. We watched with some amusement & sympathy a family in Yarmouth back in August battling the covers up on their Sea Ray. It took them at least 15 minutes to sort them all out.

Must admit I'm not so sure about larger HTs. For example I love the SC35 and SC38, (but not the prices), but the roof on both is way above even my 6'2" head height, so no chance of wind in the hair, and I'd miss that. However with the young ones a FB is out of the question.... I rather fancy the Windy Grand Mistral 37 HT with its lower roof height and awesome performance and handling.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Re: None

Nautical, sorry but IMHO, a lot of what you say about HT v FB is off beam and I do wonder whether you'll be so anti FB when Absolute get around to producing a FB model? Then I expect you'll be telling us about the practical virtues of FB boats /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
It's not correct to suggest, as you have done, that the helmsman's view from an HT boat is better than from the inside helm of a FB boat. Either can be ergonomically well designed or poorly designed.
And you've also suggested that somehow, FB boats plane more bow up than HT boats. On what basis do you claim that? I would have thought that whether a boat rides bow up is a function of primarilarly the design of the hull and, secondly the fore/aft position of the CoG. IMHO, there's no general reason why a FB boat should ride more bow up than an HT boat
Then I also take issue with your assertion that FB boats are more rolly than HT boats. Sure if you're sitting on the flybridge itself, you move around more because you're sitting higher than the roll axis but if you don't like that, you always have the option of moving below. Frankly, I don't know whether the CoG of FB boats are generally higher than HT boats but it would be wrong to say so without some factual back up to this statement. The height of the CoG again depends where the designer places the major weights in the boat. In any case, I suspect that a hardtop which has been designed for a substantial sliding glass or grp roof is a heavy structure
One more point about HT boats. An Italian acquaintance of mine has recently chopped in his HT boat for a FB one because it was often too hot under the HT and, if the roof was open, everyone inside the HT fried. He finds a FB with bimini much cooler and pleasant
I'm not arguing with the point that some HT boats are fabulous looking beasts including, of course, Absolutes, but IMHO it's wrong to say that FB boats are inferior on technical or practical grounds

 

[Nautical]

Re: None

Not to worry mike, tis my own preferences in much of what I say, however I do drive an awful lot of stuff over the season and while I can not quote chapter and verse with regards to technical reasons why FB ride more bow up than SC in my experience it generally is the case. There are SC that also ride bow up particularly one brit builder and several med ones too but on the whole whether its because up to 45 SC are leg driven and have more trim fiddling available or the lack of a big lump of GRP overhang from the flybridge there is something dynamically different about how they ride.

I recently took a Brit fly back from Hamble to Poole 50' ish in a bit of a lump and at 20knts, full tab I couldn't see a thing over the bow so oilys on an up top for a soaking. Again just through the number of things I have poottled about on or delivered generally FB ride more bow up and with some having very small aperatures on the front screens (pearl 50 has tiny screens for the size of boat) vision is a problem at lower speeds. Again you have a lot of grp mouldings all around you in the saloon and helm position so three quarter and side vision is restricted, SC HT generally have much more glass and a one level through saloon and helm so vision is better (not always though).

The roly polly thing I refer to the flybridge and simple calcs deem that you are always going to rock side to side much more than on a SC, its not a problem if you don't mind but people like Mrs N hate it and want off ASAP, she is quite happy in the cockpit or the helm seat but no way will she go up top. I have known quite a few swmbo's and hwmbo's taken out on a sea trial on any number of part ex's we sell and didn't like the FB up top experience when it got a bit up and downy.

I am tickety boo with FB for what I would use one for, longer passages and livaboard but at the moment we generally zoom cross channel weekends, days out and up this way maybe two or three days to Dublin and lash back again, bit of James Bondy with friends on the way accross and being generally a bit of a flash twerp. Med wise we stay in apartment and go day boating so open SC with big cockpit, sunbeds, bimini up and plenty of nice food on the BBQ and drinks in the fridge and we are happy campers.

As I mentioned before each to their own what ever ticks your boxes but if asked for my needs which way I swing and my experiences then currently tis either HT or open SC.

Ahem, er, I should qualify that in so much as we are probably going tother way in the near future for our Scandinavian adventure so it will be all pipe and slippers for a year or so /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif mind you not strictley planing FB more plodder SD ala Fleming /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

No chance ABS will build any FB's they/ we are too busy building and selling everything we can at the minute and with three new launchs this season and two the following guess it will be a while yet. We are tinkering with a mini fly thingy on the 85 for 09 season but as yet prelim drawings don't look right, the roof has a really distinctive swoopy curve that look gorgeous and where ever you try introducing the mini fly it ruins the lines, perhaps we'll do an inflatable one powered by C02, push button and up she goes, mind you have to be careful with all those sexy Italian ladies you would attract and their stileto's /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[MapisM]

Re: None

I'd suggest you not to take Nautical too seriously on this subject.
He does want to please some potential customers, defining himself as a "flash twit and can't help acting the Mick and jumping off wakes and general twerpish stuff even when transiting distance from one port to another".
But on another thread, he confesses his med liveaboard plans on a (very nice, btw) Hatteras.
You know, the type of boat where, after setting the autopilot, you can either relax and enjoy the sun on the bow sofa or go down to the aft cabin for a nap!
Which goes to prove that he's a sensible guy after all...

PS for Nautical:
whenever you'll try jumping off wakes and other twerpish stuff with those 25 tons or so, don't forget to post some pics!
/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[Renegade_Master]

Re: None

I hope the are not customer boats that they jump the wakes in or are they just demo models?


(note to oneself: dont buy ex demo model boats)

 

[Nautical]

Re: None

Oh darn it, caught me out /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

No I'd still have an SC for what we do 90% of the time, the Hat and Fleming are for different puposes, we wouldn't get very far from here to Scandinavia in a sports cruiser, neither chopping in an apartment in SoF for a SC to live and work on in summer be much cop either.

The Hat wouldn't be out and about everyday, sort of move from marina to marina three or four times a season and maybe the odd weekend jaunt, luckily we will have a charter 45 for bombing about on when to urge takes us and for the majority of time that is our boating.

 

[MapisM]

Re: None

An Absolute 52 and a Hat 54, that's a nice couple of toys indeed!...
If I had the option, I'd maybe go for even more extreme alternatives, as the following.
But I could also live with a Hat & an Abs, no doubt about that!