Harbour racing

[bedouin]

Re: From the Dinghy Racers!!!

As I said, it isn't black and white; and it also depends a lot on whether I am sailing or under power; and what point of sailing I'm on; not to mention the state of tide. However the point you mentioned is part of a buoyed channel and so would normally be interpreted as a narrow channel. My real point is that most dinghy sailors only seem to know "sail/power", "port/starboard" and don't fully understand their obligations under colregs.

Sailing in shallow water is a different matter again. "Constrained by draught" implies that I am restricted in my ability to alter course because of shallow water. Normally that would not apply if I were crossing Ryde sands - because the water is equally shallow everywhere. If of course I was hard on the wind, healed right over to reduce my draught to 4 feet (from its normal 6) and sailing in 5 feet of water I would most definitely be constrained by draughtt (not to mention totally daft). Unfortunately I don't carry a cylinder to hoist!

 

[skiffsailor]

Re: From the Dinghy Racers!!!

re: colregs - most dinghy racers have a very good understanding of the rules, albeit from a more pragmatic viewpoint than knowing which number to quote - it's more along the lines of Size Matters!! We know who will come off worse in a collision and (as far as I am aware) usually take appropriate action, regardless of who's in the right.

I would be interested to know exactly what you have been trying to navigate into Chichester Harbour - from your interpretation of the rules it sounds like something more suited to a large container port!! Maybe you could hire a pilot next time? (just kidding ))

And yes, I have been in a yacht before - spent most of my younger years cruising with my parents.

But while we're moaning - windsurfers!! - cuh!!

 

[bedouin]

Re: From the Dinghy Racers!!!

Obviously it depends a lot on conditions, but if I am under sail then I would certainly class the channels as 'narrow'.

Life becomes particularly difficult when approaching races (either dinghys or yachts) since you often find a whole fleet stretched out in front of you, so action that would be appropriate if only one dinghy were involved becomes impossible. In open water I would normally steer almost parallel to the race, and cut through the line when the opportunity arises. In Chi harbour that is just not feasible.

My only real objection with dinghy racers is the torrent of abuse to which I have sometimes been subjected just for daring to presume to sail in the same water as they (and no, this is not restricted to dinghy races either; unfortunately Kim has banned us from mentioning [censored] on this board).

 

[steveh]

Re: From the Dinghy Racers!!!

What about the cruiser that will insist on tacking out the entrance late on Sunday!
Agree about the dingys - have you tried getting to Dell Quay down the winding channel with a racing fleet all around you!
Also been shouted at by the safety boats and once almost swamped in our tender at Itchenor by a "safety" boat.

 

[Guest]

Many boats: narrow waters

To Rog who started this. Don't be such an old woman.
Sailing is for sport, fun and difficult but rewarding moments.

 

[david_e]

Surfers United!!!!

Now then Skiffy, I was with you on this thread (even though I only know the area from the chart inserts in the mag) but you leave Windsurfers out of it!!) I raced around the many parts of the UK and freesurfed for many years in waves and winds that have most yotties and dinghies running for cover. About 17 years in all, most of the guys I met were dinghy sailors who raced or skiers who surfed, nearly all would go quite some way to avoiding a collision for obvious reasons, but the big handicap is the high speed short boards have very narrow angles of sailing so they like all the other bods out on the water with their own special requirements need looking out for)

 

[rog]

Re: Many boats: narrow waters

Deckmaster

Frankly, I don't appreciate being insulted and I think your comment is unwarranted in view of the content of the majority of the replies.

Sport, fun and difficult agreed but a rewarding moment for me is certainly not just missing a collision, which actually was the point of my posting.

Presumably you consider the risks to be reasonable and acceptable?

 

[BarryD]

Hear, hear. NM

<G> Light blue touch paper...

Barry D

 

[skiffsailor]

Re: Surfers United!!!!

Ha Ha!! As a fellow windsurfer I'm with you, just thought I'd stick a provocative remark in there to see who was watching!!

My theory is:
20 knots ++ - windsurfing
5-20 knots - sailing
<5 knots - DIY!!!

 

[rogerroger]

Re: Many boats: narrow waters

Fun quickly turns to stress and frustration when things aren't done properly and people don't feel safe. I don't charge blindly through a fleet a kids racing Optimists just thinking, "oh, this is fun"...

A rather thoughtless remark.

Roger Holden
www.first-magnitude.co.uk

 

[ChrisJ]

Re: Many boats: narrow waters

I have a Westerly Konsort - the epitome of a sailing caravan - which I cruise around the coast in with the family. I also race every other weekend in an RS400 (skiff like, but without the need to hook onto wires dangling from the mast).

When in the dinghy, we are highly manouverable, but also highly vulnerable in a collision with a bigger boat (size really does matter). We will always avoid bigger boats - and all we ask is that the larger boats intentions are clear. We may get close (when tacking against the tide, or meeting a boat near a turning mark, there may not be much room). We may frighten people (remember the sign on a lorry - "If you can't see my mirrors, I can't see you". Its the same in a planing dinghy with avery large spinny - if you can't see the helms head, he can't see you!).

Then in the cruiser, we will often sail into places. But if confronted with a large fleet of dinghies, we either stay to the edge, or motor. We will be sensible about our course - straight, obvious lines; keeping to the edge of the channel; avoiding start lines (which tend to be chaotic for 3 minutes, and then clear quickly). Trying to avoid dinghies by altering course when they are close, is fraught with danger. Altering course 2 or 3 mins before you reach their area is sensible.

The other thing to do, is to identify their course, and then drop anchor 15 minutes before the dinghies get there. Get the beers out, and put your feet up! Then watch them short tack against the tide around you.

 

[david_e]

Re: Surfers United!!!!

Slight adjustment required for me these days;

20 knots ++ = golf
2-20 knots = sailing
<2 knots = golf
DIY - whats that?

Hang loose!!

 

[rogerroger]

Re: Many boats: narrow waters

Yes of course, I'm all for courtesy and common sense. In fact I sailed into Salcombe during regatta week last year which was so hectic - I could have charged down the channel standing on my rights but no, I waved down the HM in his rib and asked him where he'd like me to sail (well motor of course) to cause as little distruption to the racing fleets as possible.

Even when we were at the side of the "causeway" I was still on and off the throttle trying to make life easier for those racing.

But - this is different from Chichester where it's not so easy to do this and doesn't necessarily benefit anyway as it can cause confusion.

Roger Holden
www.first-magnitude.co.uk

 

[Viking]

Re: From the Dinghy Racers!!!

Im sure that the yacht and motor cruiser skippers who have complained about being impeded in a 'narrow' channel have been flying the correct 'day or night' signals to that fact that they are 'confined to a narrow channel' under con.regs?
-say no more!
East Head and RS400's reminders me of the 'trapeze' artist who nearly lost his head on my stern, when I was anchored there. Because he was not looking where he was going.

 

[bedouin]

Re: From the Dinghy Racers!!!

QED

I suggest you read Colregs! - There is no such signal as you suggest, and therefore no requirement to fly one.

In particular the term "constrained by draught" ONLY applies to power-driven vessels. If you were to hoist a cylinder while under sail you would definitely be contravening the rules.

Serious point - Colregs are complex, and subject to a significant amount of interpretation. A number of Dinghy sailors I have come across only seem to know "power gives way to sail" and "port/starboard" without knowing all the exceptions (Overtaking, Narrow Channel &c); which is why it is so dangerous

 

[Viking]

Re: From the Dinghy Racers!!!

I have read my Col.regs and it says "vessel constrained by her draft" Rule 9 regarding channels and fairways each pargragh starts with the words 'A vessel'
under Rule 3 General definiitions (a) 'The words "vessel" includes every description of water craft'. "Power driven" as you refer to under Rule 3 (h) includes sailing vessel under power under definition Rule 3 (c).
I know most pictures show a large super tanker, but a keel boat as the same. if smaller, in scale, problem.

The original writer - now forgotten - was talking about Chichester Harbour which as more then a few narrow channels, including the entrance, as well as dredged channels up to marinas.

And rules are rules !!

 

[bedouin]

Re: From the Dinghy Racers!!!

I'm sure that Colregs were written to keep Marine Lawyers in work!

Rule 3 h) The term " vessel constrained by her draught" means a power-driven vessel which because of her draught in relation to the available depth of water is severely restricted in her ability to deviate from the course she is following.

A sailing boat under sail is not a power-driven vessel, and hence cannot be 'constrained by draught' according to the rules.

However, the rules being referred to earlier were about is Rule 9 that covers vessels in a narrow channel - that rule does not require the display of any day shape. A vessel navigating in a narrow channel would not normally be regarded as constrained by draught.

 

[Viking]

Re: From the Dinghy Racers!!!

Well does that mean I can stop hoisting my Thermos Flask up the yard?

Of cause here in the deep fjords we dont have these problems - regards Viking