Hank on sail deck stowage...

[Yellow Ballad]

A silly question showing my inexperience but I've only ever sailed yachts before with roller reefing genoas but Sundance has hank on head sails. Last year was mainly day sails so it was only a case of picking the size hanking on and hoisting as soon as we were off the mooring and when dropped using sail ties to hold the sail between the two guard wires (like in the pic). But this year I'm planning some longer trips and may like to keep a smaller sail on deck or be able to lash the bigger sail down rather then stick it down the hatch in a sea.

As you can see the toe rail is smooth so I can't lace down to that at the moment but I've bought some eye bolts to replace the odd deck bolt every foot or so for maybe 6 ft back so I'm able to be able to rig something better, but what? These should give me something to use for the spinnaker pole/lash the dinghy if needs be, they should be far enough forward not to catch sheets as well hopefully.

Anyone got any old school pics of what they did? Zig zag between stanchion bases outside the lines over the top down to the toe rail? Something else? As I say I feel a little bit silly asking, I feel like this is something I should know already.

Many thanks in advance.

Tom

 

[[3889]]

I sailed a boat from the Solent to Gran Canaria storing foresails on deck as per your pic. Best practice, I believe, is to stow sails below deck when not in use (Lion MAIB report) but, in reasonable weather, you will have no issues with a sail well lashed to the rails. A deck storage bag would help.

 

[lpdsn]

Dacron sails: just sail tie then to the guard rails so that you can reach the cleat if necessary. Beware that UV will get the sail so it should be stowed on deck relatively short-term.

Laminates: need to be much more careful about creases or the sail being trodden on etc. Get them flaked as best you can and down below. Flake properly when in harbour.

 

[LadyInBed]

You could make up a tie line.
A length of 6mm laid line from back of pulpit to 2nd stanchion. Feed sail ties through the lay distributed along its length (I use bungees that have a bungee clamp on the end for ease and speed) then tie sail to tie line and lower guard wire.
You could put a tie line both sides of deck for two sails.

 

[KenMcCulloch]

It’s really important that you flake and roll the sail in such a way that it sheds rather than holding water, and that it’s tied to the top wire with a good gap below to allow water to wash through. If you’re changing down to a smaller headsail the waves are getting bigger! Headsails stowed in this way hav been ripped off the deck, taking the guardrail with them. What you really don’t want to have to do is deal with a sail stowed this way that’s become a liability. Don’t ask how I know this.

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

Dacron sails: just sail tie then to the guard rails so that you can reach the cleat if necessary. Beware that UV will get the sail so it should be stowed on deck relatively short-term.

Laminates: need to be much more careful about creases or the sail being trodden on etc. Get them flaked as best you can and down below. Flake properly when in harbour.

The only boats I have sailed on with hanked on sails have been sailing school boats, and the practice was to stow the sails in the cockpit locker. When changing sails under way the lucky crew would bring forward the required sail in its bag, having ensured that it had been packed properly, in that the tack, clew and hanks would all be readily accessible at the mouth of the bag. For safety the crew was to sit astride the sail, with legs hanging over each side of the bow. The sail would at this point be just poking out of the top of its bag. The new sail would be hanked on between the tack and the first hank of the old sail, the bag passed back to another crew member or tied temporarily to a cleat. The old sail was then dropped half way, the tack detached, the new sail tacked on, the old sail pulled down some more so that the halyard was accessible, the halyard swapped onto the new sail, the old sail gathered together with a sail-tie or two, the sheets detached and swapped onto the new sail, the old sail folded forward from the clew towards the tack , unhanked and carried back to the cockpit, the halyard hauled up by another crew member. The old sail was then folded as well as possible in the cockpit or on the side deck, again making sure that tack, clew and hanks were to the top of the bag. The only time the sails were left unprotected from UV was on the occasion of a short lunch stop in an anchcorage or tied up alongside for a picnic or pub lunch on an island.

 

[Yellow Ballad]

Thanks all, I understand it's best practice to keep the sails out of UV and not to leave them on deck in heavy weather. My issue is I'll be single handed a lot of the time so less time on deck suits me (well even crewed up I would rather not) so I need to reef well early, or sail slightly under canvassed. I sail with a huge No1 I need for sub 10kn to get anywhere but then I drop to a No4 for anything more and as you can imagine the No1 is a big sail to get down if the wind pick up that little bit faster then expected. I was trying to think of a quick way to tie whilst I hank and hoist the next sail, then I can sort out the old sail asap. The other thought was heading in to port to stow the sail but to be able to hoist quickly if the engine dies.

I've not heard about the Lion MAIB report so I'll have a read.

Yes I know before you say it, I need a reefing furler, I also need to win the lottery.

 

[jamie N]

I've this arrangement, which I find to be sufficient for protecting the sail when not in use, protection from UV, and easily 'secured', so that it's not blown about. The sail is in the zip up bag, and secured by it's sheet to a grab rail. I can stow or deploy the sail in about 2 minutes. I've a downhaul from the head of the sail, down through a small block at the tack, and back to the cockpit for dowsing the sail in a hurry, which works very well. I sail solo all of the time, and this works for me. Sorry about the image size, but I'm unsure as to the method of getting a full page spread!

 

[Yellow Ballad]

Interesting, a full length style stack pack for the genoa. Big chunky zip, sheets already attatched, anchor points you could even have some sort of wire at the front to fasten the hanks to so you can just fold it away without it falling out of the front.

I would love to see some more pics.

I've seen the downhaul tip on here, something I plan on trying.

Had a flick through the Lion report, sobering stuff. My biggest concern about solo sailing is slipping and knocking myself out. I already use a short teather (although I need some second jackstays inboard), life jacket, PLB, VHF but I've not been out in horrendous conditions so I can't fathom the reality.

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

You could get a sailmaker to put reefing points into your No 1 genoa, with lines to tie up the bunt of sail when it's reefed down. In this way, a good proportion of the sail is already tied up and under control when the time comes to take it down.
You can reef your No1 down to size of a No2, then go straight from that to a storm jib.

 

[Neeves]

If you feel the need to remove a No 1 then I would strongly suggest get it cleared away, completely, off the foredeck before you start to hank on the smaller sail. Single handed this is not easy but if you need to drop a No1 its because its getting frisky so if you simply tie it off to itself roughly, get it down below, and sort it out later. Get the smaller sail hanked on and up.

I would not want a No 1 on my foredeck if seas are going to break over the bow. The sail is going to take water, fill with water and detract from performance (and sails have been lost off the bow).

The suggestion of having reef points in the No 1 is sensible and was common practice.

I would also talk to your sailmaker about having a very large and long bag made that you can hank to the lifelines. As suggested beefy zip. You can then, with a bit of skill and if the bag is made correctly, drop the No1 straight into the bag, unclip the hanks, zip up and drag below. make sure the bag is self draining. This way you are simply dragging the sail as a long sausage (a bit overweight at one end) but you can lay on the cabin sole. Its also in state to be relatively easy to hank on, you really don't need to flake it - do that at the end of the passage. But if you want sails to last and you have not won the lottery then flake as neatly as you can at the end of each passage.

Jonathan

Edit There are a couple of recent threads on tethers, hooks, jackstays - I'd suggest reading them.

 

[ibbo]

My experience is the no 1 can stay on far too long, you may be revelling in the Ballad flying along with 20 knots over the deck, and suddenly it's time to change sails. As long as you have sea room the Ballad will heave to in a fashion with main only. My technique would be to reef the main first while still running up wind. If you ease the main sheet, and let it luff it's easy done. Then heave to, and drop the no1. When you set off again with the No2 (if you have one) you will be back in balance. The weather helm gets quite strong if you don't reef the main.
The boat sits happily under main only waiting for you to get organised.
The No4 I find needs plenty of wind to get the boat going, and the storm jib in 20 knots just results in crawling along.

Mike

 

[jamie N]

Again, a small image, but I had reefing points added to the foresail at the same time; they reduce the sail by about 50%, at a guess. The sail cover, boom cover and cockpit tent were done by Owen Sails at the same time as the reefing points, the 'awful' blue UV protection removed and the hanks added.
I don't have as much regard for a furler as I do for the method that I've reverted to.
For speed and simplicity the reefed foresail has a carabina at the tack and for the clew. When I put a reef in, the foresail is lowered to a marked point on the halyard downhaul, I go forward and clip the tack into the carabina there, and then clip a carabina through the 'reefed clew', and around the sheets. This immediately takes up the tension on the new clew without having a separate set of sheets, as well as putting a fold in the sail, which prevents it from flogging.
Other ways of achieving a reef abound, but this works on my boat, with me.
I've a harness which attaches to a line that runs from the front of the cockpit, around the mast, and down the 'other side'. With this, I never need to unclip, and can 'stretch' to reach the foresail tack.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

I used to used to store the sail along the guard rail if conditions allowed. With the sail down the tack remains connected and the hanks off but the luff bunched tight. Pull the clew tight and tie off, flake the sail on the side deck. Pull the bottom flake out while still keeping the clew tight. The sail forms a hammock shape along the foot. Grab the foot about mid point and the edge of the flake that you pulled out and pick both up and sail falls into the hammock. Now roll the sail into the foot and really squeeze it tight as if you are rolling up a carpet. Keep rolling it in at the mid point until it is tight and then put a sail tie around it. Work your way up to the tack and down to the clew. You will end up with a tight sausage shaped sail, quite smooth that can now be tied up the lower guardrail which allows the water to run between it and the gunwale. The luff was always a compromise but nothing that a tight sail tie could not manage. I would never have done this to a new sail. Typically used it when we did not want to having soaking sails down below and only the length of trip and / or wind conditions allowed it. There were times when it worked out if the wind / chop / quality of the stow contrived against us, also times when it did not work out. The tighter the sausage the better.

We only had a working jjb that could be reefed to a No 4. The 1st and 2nd genoa could not be reefed.

 

[lw395]

I think removing a No1 from the foredeck singlehanded can be a high risk activity.
Carrying/dragging a big genoa, it's hard to keep a hand free to hold on with, that's not good with the boat not settled.
I used to sail my Impala two up, we'd drop the No1 with the sheet tight, tack, then hoist the jib which was already hanked on below it. Then lash the genoa to the deck as I crawled back.
But with the Impala, we'd be changing down at the top of F4, as it really wanted all your mates on the rail to make the most of the No1.

 

[Yellow Ballad]

I do love the simplicity of hanks but I also see the ease of sailing with a roller furler and the fact the sail isn't in a locker. I imagine it'll be something I'll look into but at the moment I havent' got 2k for the kit and a new sail. Having a reefing point in No1 is a good idea but as it's been mentioned if I have to take a reefed No1 down to get the high cut yankee ( pretty much a storm jib) up in a fgood sea it's a massive sail to handle on my own. I would much rather get it out of the way sooner rather then later and fight smaller the No4 if I have to. A No2 to reef to 4 could be a good shout but to do that I might as well stump up the cash to fit a furler.

Mike, I've just put 2+2 together your username to the Ballad Facebook group, nice to hear thoughts from another Ballad owner. At the moment I carry 3 head sails, the No1 (upto 10kn), No4 (upto 30) and a high cut yankee for anything more as is pretty much a storm jib. I do have a 2 and 3 but they're both a bit tired and I don't keep them on boat for space and weight, I'll only tend to take them down to the boat if I think the forecast is a bit 50/50 for the No1. I find a full main and No4 nicely balanced in about 15ish then reef the main to suit but I'm shorthanded and not racing so I can afford to loose a little boat speed.

The fun thing with the Bristol Channel as I'm sure with a lot of places is 4kn of boat speed with 4kn of tide whilst beating into 20kn of westerly and an ebbing tide makes it feel a lot worse then it could be, wind and sea state. I don't make it easy for myself...

I think the long "stackpack" style sail bag clipped onto the life lines could be a winner, it could even be clipped onto the lazy life line to be dragged back to the cockpit once away.

 

[lw395]

I once bought a used, smaller genoa, just for a delivery trip.
I think, if I were intending to sail singlehanded, I'd quite like something a bit smaller than a No1, unless the weather was perfect.
It's not hard to add clips to a bolt rope genoa.

 

[ibbo]

Hi Tom,
I'm lucky in that I now have the furler, with a nice new heavy No1 on. It's cut slightly higher at the clew than a std one, and can stay un rolled until I see gusts up to 20 knots on the clock. I've no idea how accurate the wind speed is, I just use it as a guide.
The main usually gets a reef in slightly before then.
It depends on your mast rake as to how much wind helm builds up.
I also have a solent stay, so it gives me the choice of putting the smaller sails up as hank on ones. The old No1 and 2 were beyond salvage.

Mike

 

[doug748]

lw has a good point.

Your boat was designed for racing it has an easily driven hull and originally plenty of canvas.

You might first check if you really have a full light wind genoa, this has a very large overlap, almost as far as the end of the main boom. I would go for something much more modest, you will not notice greatly reduced performance at reasonable windspeeds, when cruising. A cruising chute can fill in the gap in light conditions.

A smaller sail will need to come down less, it will be more portable when you have to do it and, with a higher clew, you will have better forward vision which is a boon when sailing alone. If you go over to headsail furling you will find it necessary to fit a smaller sail anyway, I have it down to well under 130% now, it helps make tacking quicker and easier into the bargain.

 

[bbg]

Responding directly to the OP's question:
- one option is to have length of bungee cord between the base of the first and third stanchions (actually, looking at your picture, it would be the second and fourth). In the middle secure a plastic hook.
https://www.force4.co.uk/force-4-shock-cord-hooks-m.html?sqr=hook&
You could even put two or three hooks along the length of the shock cord. Sail goes on deck, shock cord goes underneath and hooks to the lower lifeline.
for more security, use three hooks and attach a short loop of line or shock cord to the base of the middle stanchion. First and third hooks secure to the lower lifeline, middle hook goes back down to the deck and attaches to the loop at the base of the middle stanchion.

This might be secure enough in some conditions, but at least it is a quick and easy way to get the sail under control. Then you can add sail ties if you want, either to secure it to the lifelines or to bundle the sail and get it below.

Obviously you need this on both sides of the boat.