Hands up those who have been fined for not having a registration document

[Tranona]

So, does that mean you have not followed up your informant's lead to check out your suspicions?

Your dimissal of Douanes applying penalties and giving official receipts as "some low grade officials who are not familiar...." beggars belief. Do you really think these professional people are in this category? - and you still don't check out the organisation?

Still not sure what achieving your goal of trying to prove that penalties imposed on others are not legitimate is all about. Are you and Toad going to assemble an Armada of unregistered yachts and descend on major French ports? To what end?

All a bit of a nonsense really. One person gets the idea that, because there is no legal requirement to register a yacht in the UK this should also mean that when visiting other countries evidence of registration is not required and those countries might impose a penalty. Seems a huge leap from one reality to another speculation. But then I was brought up in the tradition of logic rather than fantasy.

It would be very different if you came along with "I have an opinion from a leading French lawyer that these penalties are not legitimate" then people might listen. Or, "I have an assurance from the Chief of Douanes that no evidence of registration is required and I will discipline any of my officers who try to extract money from British Yachtsmen on trumped up charges". Over to you.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Do you really think these professional people are in this category?

Well given one of them issued a fine in a currency that didn't exist, and another issued a fine for an out of date document that didn't have an expiry date written on it and no two of them ever fined anyone the same amount you do have to question their ability as customs officers. Or were they policemen? Nobody seems to know.

I get the feeling that there are some vulnerable people in this thread who would literally pay cash to anyone who asked for it and not even check the receipt afterwards to see if they've been ripped off. Staggering. (If true.)

then people might listen.

I doubt Tim cares if anyone else listens. This isn't about winning an internet squabble, it's about find out if this law exists and exactly what it requires.

For some people ignorance isn't bliss, we actually want to know stuff.

 

[vyv_cox]

I get the feeling that there are some vulnerable people in this thread who would literally pay cash to anyone who asked for it and not even check the receipt afterwards to see if they've been ripped off. Staggering. (If true.)

Which world is it that you live in? I have not been fined, as I make it a point to carry the documentation advised by the RYA, CA and every other yachting organisation. However, I have been boarded. The officers are large, in uniform, carry guns and are intimidating. They are quite obviously 'official' and I only barely speak their language, so argument with them would not be easy. I don't see myself as particularly vulnerable but I don't doubt that if one of them found me not to be carrying some required piece of documentation I would pay any fine without hesitation. And probably be pleased to do so.

 

[timbartlett]

So, does that mean you have not followed up your informant's lead to check out your suspicions?

What would be the point? Have you followed up your informant's lead to check out your suspicions? No: you left it to me.

Your dimissal of Douanes applying penalties and giving official receipts as "some low grade officials who are not familiar...." beggars belief. Do you really think these professional people are in this category?

Yes, I do. The ones that go round handing out fixed penalty notices are not at the top of the tree, any more than police superintendents go round nicking people for speeding. And when you bear in mind that there are well over 100 maritime nations in the world, all with their own regulations regarding registration and do you really expect anyone to be familiar with all of them?

Still not sure what achieving your goal of trying to prove that penalties imposed on others are not legitimate is all about.

That is not my goal. I want to know the facts. That, to my mind, is a valid goal in itself. And I am becoming pretty pi55ed off by your determination to stand in the way of it. If you have evidence that will help (in either direction) why are you so reluctant to do provide it. And as it seems you do not have any evidence, why are you so determined to shout down those who do?

All a bit of a nonsense really.

Indeed it is. So instead of repeating the same nonsense time after time, why don't you shut up and go and annoy someone else?

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

I have been boarded. The officers are large, in uniform, carry guns and are intimidating. They are quite obviously 'official' and I only barely speak their language, so argument with them would not be easy. I don't see myself as particularly vulnerable but I don't doubt that if one of them found me not to be carrying some required piece of documentation I would pay any fine without hesitation. And probably be pleased to do so.

You're vulnerable. You're even scared of the guns. Viv, they will NOT shoot you.

The only two options you can think of in the case of being offered a fixed penalty for an offence you don't understand as 1) Start an argument with the rozzers or 2) Pay up without even subsequently checking the offence.

For that reason you're *exactly* the sort of person that falls for con tricks, and then lets the perps subsequently get away with it.

A 10 year old could list countless alternatives to those two rather unhelpful options. Indeed not everyone carries 150EUR in cash or in the bank so some people must be denied the fixed penalty even if they are prepared to accept guilt. The French rozzers/revenue guys will have a procedure to deal with that and it will not involve prison for £9 fine! They will be calm and professional. This is France, not Nigeria. Don't worry.

Personally I'm too chicken to admit anything abroad. If I did decide to risk admitting something I would keep the document and write down as much detail as possible about the people and vessel involved then chase it subsequently. It can't hurt, and might help. Nobody has done that in this thread. Easy bait for the dishonest.

I sometimes wonder if it's coincidence that I've always found foreign officials to be friendly, helpful and cheerful whilst a handful of people on here seem (claim) to piss them off to the point where they get arsed around?

 

[timbartlett]

... I don't see myself as particularly vulnerable but I don't doubt that if one of them found me not to be carrying some required piece of documentation I would pay any fine without hesitation. And probably be pleased to do so.

Sounds pretty vulnerable to me.
You just hand over money to anyone who looks official and speaks in a foreign language?
Tell, me, what is the point of legislation if you are just as likely to be punished for not breaking the law as if you do?
Isn't this the beginning of the end of the rule of law?

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Sounds pretty vulnerable to me.
You just hand over money to anyone who looks official and speaks in a foreign language?

It's almost the definition of vulnerable.

 

[ColdFusion]

Toad and Tim

Playing devil's advocate here... What would you do if confronted by large, armed 'officials' who board your boat speaking in a foreign language and demanding a fine/charge/penalty/call-it-what-you-will?

 

[timbartlett]

Toad and Tim

Playing devil's advocate here... What would you do if confronted by large, armed 'officials' who board your boat speaking in a foreign language and demanding a fine/charge/penalty/call-it-what-you-will?

If they are genuine officials who believe that they are acting in accordance with the law, they will have no problem in writing down the details of the offence. In fact, I would expect them to do so without being asked.

I like to think that I would then have the guts to say "see you in court". (I've done it several times in the UK, and usually win) Of course, I would be more likely to have the guts to say see you in court if I knew the facts ....

... and that, of course, is what this thread is all about. Most people who have paid these penalties have done so because they do not know what they are pleading guilty to, but believe that the officials must be right. If they knew for sure that the officials were wrong, I doubt whether they would be such soft targets.

PS IMHO, there is a big difference between a fine and a penalty. A fine is demanded by a court after due process of law. A penalty is demanded by an official, without presenting evidence or legal argument.

PPS I'm assuming, from the context, that they were claiming a bogus penalty. If it was a genuine one -- for anchoring in a prohibited anchorage, fishing in a no-fishing zone or whatever, then Id pay up. I can't expect officials to obey the law and play by the rules if I don't do so myself.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

What would you do if confronted by large, armed 'officials' who board your boat speaking in a foreign language and demanding a fine/charge/penalty/call-it-what-you-will?

I'd be friendly and professional. I'd appologise and say that I didn't have any cash on me. I very much doubt it would go further than that even if there really is an offence.

If it did go further and there really was no opition, frankly I'd be friendly & politely go down the court route. I don't know what that would entail. Hard to imagine it being an arrestible offence. If it was, frankly I'd still go down the court route. Brit on remand abroad for losing a meaningless bit of paper - the Daily Mail would pay me £50,000 for the story.

In the highly unlikely event that I felt cornered into admitting something and paying a fine I'd keep the receipt and double check later that it was legit. If it wasn't I'd contact everyone I could to at least get the people who did it disciplined so future suckers didn't get fined. I suspect a refund might even be possible.

In reality I'd assume the cost of chasing someone abroad for a minor offence made it something they wished to avoid. (Same in the UK. There's only one motoring offence pursued abroad.)

I would NOT argue, indeed I see no need to. It makes no odds to them if I take the fixed penalty or not. They will see people with no means to pay the fine from time to time. I'd just be one of them.

Of course, none of this is relevant to my question.

 

[ColdFusion]

Thank you, both, for your constructive replies.

I would (also) like to see a definitive answer to the original question posed. At the moment I think the nays have it by a whisker but the quantity of anecdotal evidence of 'fines' being imposed for not having registration papers points to there being a problem of some kind with our French friends. Perhaps the magazines could investigate further on our behalf?

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Perhaps the magazines could investigate further on our behalf?

I think a "legal myth busters" article would fill a page or two and cost very little to write. From the length of this thread a lot of people would read it.

Flares: Busted.
VAT: Busted.
SSR: ???

I really don't know why YM haven't already done it. I suspect there might be a very good reason.

 

[jaba]

As much as I’ll love this thread going on indefinitely, I will post here a translation of a page on the official site of the Italian Coastguard (military sea police) regarding the less-than-10-meter-long yachts stating that

“Following the meeting at the (Italian) Ministry of Infrastructure and Transport on 5.11.2004 between the (Italian) Directorate General for Navigation and Inland and Ocean freight, the General Command of the (Italian) Coastguard and the Customs' Attaché of the French Embassy, we came to the final resolution of the issue of the navigation of Italian pleasure boats in French territorial waters. Under this agreement, the Directorate General of Customs and Excise of France confirmed that the Italian owners of pleasure craft to travel to French territorial waters must have on board, available to the Control Authority, the following documents: - bill insurance for civil liability whith, among other things, the name of the owner of the vessel - the vessel bill of sale, if available, - if the vessel was used by someone other than the owner or if the insurance policy was made out to others, simply a statement from the owner of the craft or the holder of insurance issued to the person using the vessel.”

Imho this proves that
1 – At least one country (Italy) recognizes the French right to check the foreign flagged boats papers and request certain documents.
2 - It’s not a matter of law (which is the reason why in my opinion you don’t find any), but of an executive branch decision/policy.
I suggest you investigate with your own UK body (Coast Guard? Foreign Office?...) or directly write to the French Customs, to ask for their official position and policy regarding UK flagged yachts transiting in France.
I’m afraid there's no other way, (apart maybe from the direct experience of being on the receiving end of a fine ;-)),.

Best
j
http://www.guardiacostiera.it/diporto/faq.cfm?PageNum_Recordset1=4&argomento=documentazione

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

bill insurance for civil liability whith, among other things, the name of the owner of the vessel - the vessel bill of sale, if available, - if the vessel was used by someone other than the owner or if the insurance policy was made out to others, simply a statement from the owner of the craft or the holder of insurance issued to the person using the vessel.”

So if the owner is aboard the only document they must have is insurance.

Which is exactly what the French Plod told Al Carpenter.

At least one country (Italy) recognizes the French right to check the foreign flagged boats papers and request certain documents.

I don't think that's ever been in dispute. The question has never been 'Do the French have a right to make any law they fancy.' the question has always been "Have the French actually made such a law."

It’s not a matter of law

I find it hard to accept that a fine can be levied by a state without a law. But let's assume that instead of a law there's some kind of agreement of some fines that aren't laws. They'd still need to state those rules/fine amounts somewhere. Where?

 

[timbartlett]

“Following the meeting at the (Italian) Ministry of Infrastructure and Transport on 5.11.2004 between the (Italian) Directorate General for Navigation and Inland and Ocean freight, the General Command of the (Italian) Coastguard and the Customs' Attaché of the French Embassy, we came to the final resolution of the issue of the navigation of Italian pleasure boats in French territorial waters.

Sounds to me like an italian official and a french official (or maybe groups of them) got together and the meeting went like this:-
It: "Can we sort out this yacht problem?"
Fr: What's that then?
It: Some of your officers have been penalising our yachtsmen for not having registration documents
Fr: What's wrong with that?
It: But Italian boats don't have to have registration documents unless they are over 10m
Fr: Oh ****, don't they? That means it's illegal for our guys to ask for them.
It: Yes, that's what we thought.
Fr: No problem: we'll send a circular round to all our officers right away. Tell you what, though: it would be really nice if you could get your yachtsmen to carry insurance.
It: No problem! Well dress this up as though we've won a big concession from you, and compulsory insurance is the price of the concession.

 

[al.carpenter]

As much as I’ll love this thread going on indefinitely, I will post here a translation of a page on the official site of the Italian Coastguard (military sea police) regarding the less-than-10-meter-long yachts stating that

“Following the meeting at the (Italian) Ministry of Infrastructure and Transport on 5.11.2004 between the (Italian) Directorate General for Navigation and Inland and Ocean freight, the General Command of the (Italian) Coastguard and the Customs' Attaché of the French Embassy, we came to the final resolution of the issue of the navigation of Italian pleasure boats in French territorial waters. Under this agreement, the Directorate General of Customs and Excise of France confirmed that the Italian owners of pleasure craft to travel to French territorial waters must have on board, available to the Control Authority, the following documents: - bill insurance for civil liability whith, among other things, the name of the owner of the vessel - the vessel bill of sale, if available, - if the vessel was used by someone other than the owner or if the insurance policy was made out to others, simply a statement from the owner of the craft or the holder of insurance issued to the person using the vessel.”

Imho this proves that
1 – At least one country (Italy) recognizes the French right to check the foreign flagged boats papers and request certain documents.
2 - It’s not a matter of law (which is the reason why in my opinion you don’t find any), but of an executive branch decision/policy.
I suggest you investigate with your own UK body (Coast Guard? Foreign Office?...) or directly write to the French Customs, to ask for their official position and policy regarding UK flagged yachts transiting in France.
I’m afraid there's no other way, (apart maybe from the direct experience of being on the receiving end of a fine ;-)),.

Best
j
http://www.guardiacostiera.it/diporto/faq.cfm?PageNum_Recordset1=4&argomento=documentazione

Hi, this is what I have done for the 12 or 13 years that I have owned and kept two of my yachts in France. Every time I was asked documents, the bill of sale and the insurance certificate were good enough. They were not SSR registered and never once has this been questioned... or caused any problem, let alone a fine...

 

[jaba]

Toad says: "I find it hard ... without a law". Well, I am no expert but in Italy, for instance, you can have fines imposed with bylaws, regulations, decrees etc. You don't need a "proper" law, as per approved by Parliament. No idea about France, though.
Toad says " They'd still need to state those rules/fine amounts somewhere". I think you are (probably) right, that's why I suggested to ask the French Customs. And that is what I would personally do if I were British and did not want/like/wish/accept to carry a SSR registration. I could very well discover that there is no need of SSR. Or the contrary, though ;-)
Timbartlett: I find your dramatic reconstruction very entertaining and perfectly sensible, (apart from a French official admitting in front of Italians -or any foreigner for that matter - that what they did was illegal. That I am not able to believe).

In conclusion, I reckon that there is some (big?) latitude of creation & interpretation of rules by the Douanes administration (this latitude could be perfectly legal under French law) and at the same time, I suspect, an (unwritten?) agreement of sorts with some UK body from which originates the Rya statement about the SSR. Maybe they wrote to the Douanes and received that answer... (in fact one could very well ask them where they got that info).
Absolutely IMHO, of course.
best
j

 

[Tranona]

What would be the point? Have you followed up your informant's lead to check out your suspicions? No: you left it to me.

How many more times do I have to tell you that I don't have an "informant". Unlike some people I read and assess what is writen or stated (and there is a lot) about the subject and form my own opinion.

You were given a specific source that it was claimed would resolve your doubts and you have failed to follow it up. What more can I say?

Remember once again it is you that has the doubts, not me!

 

[timbartlett]

You were given a specific source that it was claimed would resolve your doubts and you have failed to follow it up. What more can I say?

Al Carpenter found the source, contacted them, and told us all what they said. I have no problem with that. I see no need to phone and get the bloke to repeat it all to me.
It's not that I "failed" to follow it up, it's that I saw (and still see) no need to.

I take it that you have still not checked any of the "facts" that you have endorsed so enthusiastically?

 

[BrendanS]

I thought you were a journalist? Don't you ever check sources?
You give a hard enough time to anyone else that is lazy in source gathering, and beating up people that make assumptions.