Hallberg-Rassy vs Bavaria

[Graham376]

Post #1 - “If I don't plan to cross oceans, is a Bavaria not much better value?”

OK sorry, I missed that bit. Just for interest though, I found Irish Sea on occasions far rougher than our Biscay crossings were.

 

[dunedin]

OK sorry, I missed that bit. Just for interest though, I found Irish Sea on occasions far rougher than our Biscay crossings were.

Yes, but on crossings of less than 2-3 days, nowadays one can generally get pretty accurate forecasts and decide to avoid going if likely to get a pasting - an option not available if mid-Atlantic.
(And as noted, many Ben/Jen/Bav are as heavy as recent HR, and well able to take a bit of tough weather when necessary, even if the crew of both types might prefer to be in harbour having a beer,)

 

[Clancy Moped]

To the OP, what kind of sailing do have in mind? Weekend stuff off the Solent, liveaboard in the Med, and or anything in between?

 

[DueSouth]

To the OP, what kind of sailing do have in mind? Weekend stuff off the Solent, liveaboard in the Med, and or anything in between?

Coastal sailing around the UK, based in Suffolk, River Orwell...want to cross channel to France and Netherlands, but will probably spend most of the time around the UK.

 

[DueSouth]

Thank you all for the very useful input and knowledge shared.

I am leaning towards a Bavaria, it seems to be the sensible choice for the sailing I intend to do...I can get a newer boat in my budget and having less maintenance may add the the enjoyment to start with.

Anybody have views on a Bavaria 34 from 2006...I cannot find a 36 locally and tempted by the 34...it has teak side decks, which I am not sure is standard with the 34, but I may be wrong.

 

[Bobc]

How does this help the OP who's looking at 36 ft boats? Do you have the underwater profiles to compare? I do know a friends Bav 37 has a much flatter underwater profile than my Moody and I would expect the HR to be deeper as well.

I doesn't. You asked which Bav I had and for a comparison with a similar HR. That is all.

You can hardly compare an early 90s boat with a late 2000s one either, it's like comparing a Cortina with a Mondeo.

 

[Bobc]

How does this help the OP who's looking at 36 ft boats? Do you have the underwater profiles to compare? I do know a friends Bav 37 has a much flatter underwater profile than my Moody and I would expect the HR to be deeper as well.

 

[Elessar]

I am looking to buy my first boat...

I know there is no comparison between these two makes, did my research and understand that a Hallberg-Rassy is a very special yacht. What to buy though on my budget?

I can get a Hallberg-Rassy 36 from 1993, but there is a Bavaria 36 from 2011 (18 years younger) for about £10k less than the Hallberg-Rassy...I could even get a Bavaria 36 from 2004 (still 11 years younger than HR) for £30k less than the Hallberg-Rassy...

I know it is an impossible comparison, but the questions are:

1. Is a circa 30 year old Hallberg-Rassy still a good buy?
2. If I don't plan to cross oceans, is a Bavaria not much better value?

All opinions most welcome.

Thanks.

Hull build quality is better on the bavaria than on the rassey. If the rassey lovers scream at me for that I will happily justify that accurate statement.

Rassey has lots of nice wood. Which if you like the look is lovely.

However rasseys of that age didn’t like new fangled gkue so those lovely wooden decks are screwed down. And right now those decks are a train full of bills trundling down the track in your direction.

Boats though are a heart purchase not a head purchase. Which one do you feel good in? The rassey needs a much bigger contingency pot though

 

[Kelpie]

Is there anything to choose between them on interior design? My impression, based on not much, is that boats built for the charter market tend to have big open spaces which are nice and airy, whereas more upmarket boats may have more locker space instead. I could be wrong about that, but I do know that similar volume hulls can be fitted out to favour stowage over open space, and vice versa.

 

[pandos]

I have a 40 year old HR and whilst I love it the Bavaria will out perform it in light to medium air everyday.

But when it is windy or rolly the HR is the job to have.

...
the cost of replacing teak decks when time expired, possibly around £40k for a 36 on today's prices. Teak decks not a good idea if heading to hotter climates.

If you do not want teak decks there is the option of removing them from a HR if you wished.
Mine had been fitted with artificial teak when I bought it. I removed this and filled and faired the surface and painted it. I have seen many HRs with epoxy finished decks which look really good.

 

[ashtead]

Thank you all for the very useful input and knowledge shared.

I am leaning towards a Bavaria, it seems to be the sensible choice for the sailing I intend to do...I can get a newer boat in my budget and having less maintenance may add the the enjoyment to start with.

Anybody have views on a Bavaria 34 from 2006...I cannot find a 36 locally and tempted by the 34...it has teak side decks, which I am not sure is standard with the 34, but I may be wrong.

I would go for the 36 which isn’t 36 foot at all but longer however avoid teak side decks unless new teak -it’s very thin teak on a Bav so if you like the look have your suveyor carefully check . A 2006 Bav 34 as perhaps you know is a different beast to a 2001 version though but provided you can find a mooring the extra length is worthwhile on 36 . Have you looked at a Hanse with a self tacking headsail though ?

 

[Tranona]

Thank you all for the very useful input and knowledge shared.

I am leaning towards a Bavaria, it seems to be the sensible choice for the sailing I intend to do...I can get a newer boat in my budget and having less maintenance may add the the enjoyment to start with.

Anybody have views on a Bavaria 34 from 2006...I cannot find a 36 locally and tempted by the 34...it has teak side decks, which I am not sure is standard with the 34, but I may be wrong.

Have a look here mjambo.de

Apart from giving you a good idea of what the boat is like inside it will put to bed a lot of the stuff about the capability of the boat raised here. That model only ran for 3 years and numbers sold were much lower than earlier boats, partly because of the financial crisis. As I explained in another post, although Bavarias tend to all look the same because of the strong house style there is a lot of variation and the 34 is the ultimate development of the J&J design philosophy and is a more substantial boat than some earlier iterations. You have to watch the model "sizes" as they often bear little relationship to the actual length so direct comparisons are not always easy.

When I sold my 37 the 34 you are looking at was top choice if I went for a used boat, but even then (2015) they were difficult to find. I think it is the best of the smaller J&J boats with the slight reservation that the drop down transom did not work as well as it should. Otherwise it is pretty much all there in terms of what you are looking for.

I assume the one you are looking at is in Woolverstone. Looks fine in the ad and has all the right gear - even the transom has been sorted! However be wary of the teak decks. Good thing is that they are just stuck on rather than screwed, but downside is that they are just a thin overlay, so wear may mean there is not enough thickness to recaulk effectively. On the photos there is evidence of failed caulking where there are damp patches. This can be sorted with local recaulking, but if the adhesion to the deck has also failed more drastic action is needed. Easy to tell because the teak will be springy around the glue failure. Some people have removed the teak completely as the non slip is there underneath, but this is a massive dirty job. Asking price is probably on the high side if major teak work is needed.

Starting point is obviously view the boat first and see if it grabs you and your family. It has good "kerbside" appeal which is underpinned by solid construction and good gear.

 

[Jan van Rensburg]

I would go for the 36 which isn’t 36 foot at all but longer however avoid teak side decks unless new teak -it’s very thin teak on a Bav so if you like the look have your suveyor carefully check . A 2006 Bav 34 as perhaps you know is a different beast to a 2001 version though but provided you can find a mooring the extra length is worthwhile on 36 . Have you looked at a Hanse with a self tacking headsail though ?

Hi, thanks for the feedback. What is the difference between the 2001 Bav 34 and 2006 Bav 34? I read about it having a different designer, but nowhere can I get feedback on what is different, better or worse.
I have found a Hanse in my search and liked it, it is a consideration if I can find one.

 

[Tranona]

Hi, thanks for the feedback. What is the difference between the 2001 Bav 34 and 2006 Bav 34? I read about it having a different designer, but nowhere can I get feedback on what is different, better or worse.
I have found a Hanse in my search and liked it, it is a consideration if I can find one.

Same designer (J&J). The original 34 was actually nearly 36' and an instant winner in both the charter and private market. I wanted one in 2000 for 2001 but they were sold out until 2002 so bought a 37 which was on offer from the factory. You will read a lot above concerning "light displacement" of Bavaria and this is based on that era of boats. The displacement of the early 34 is around 4500kgs, typically between 1-2000kgs lighter than the more traditional boats of similar size. The later (2006 on) is a much more substantial boat in terms of displacement at 5700kgs, partly (as I explained earlier ) because of higher volume hull and longer waterline length. This trend to higher displacement was common in that period from most production builders. The other main difference is the interior, the newer boat being much lighter and the level of standard equipment better, although this is partly due to developments in the equipment. For example the later boat can fit a proper under deck autopilot.

Which is better? Once you understand how to sail a large volume light displacement boat (reef early and don't pinch up to wind) the early boat does well and is very comfortable to live on. Over the years they have proved very reliable. Usually plenty of choice and available with twin aft cabins. Typical price around £40k. I have covered much of the newer boat in post#52. Fewer built, generally better equipped and being newer may require less work, but asking prices closer to £60k.

Hanses are good boats with perhaps greater emphasis on sailing ability, although many have self tacking jibs which limit off wind performance. Earlier boats (pre, say 2008) not as well thought out or built as some of the competitors as the yard was originally set up in East Germany to build cut price obsolete Swedish boats. So not as sophisticated design and construction as say Bavaria at the time. Relatively few sold in the UK in the early days but some models like the 34 and 37 are sought after.

 

[Jan van Rensburg]

Same designer (J&J). The original 34 was actually nearly 36' and an instant winner in both the charter and private market. I wanted one in 2000 for 2001 but they were sold out until 2002 so bought a 37 which was on offer from the factory. You will read a lot above concerning "light displacement" of Bavaria and this is based on that era of boats. The displacement of the early 34 is around 4500kgs, typically between 1-2000kgs lighter than the more traditional boats of similar size. The later (2006 on) is a much more substantial boat in terms of displacement at 5700kgs, partly (as I explained earlier ) because of higher volume hull and longer waterline length. This trend to higher displacement was common in that period from most production builders. The other main difference is the interior, the newer boat being much lighter and the level of standard equipment better, although this is partly due to developments in the equipment. For example the later boat can fit a proper under deck autopilot.

Which is better? Once you understand how to sail a large volume light displacement boat (reef early and don't pinch up to wind) the early boat does well and is very comfortable to live on. Over the years they have proved very reliable. Usually plenty of choice and available with twin aft cabins. Typical price around £40k. I have covered much of the newer boat in post#52. Fewer built, generally better equipped and being newer may require less work, but asking prices closer to £60k.

Hanses are good boats with perhaps greater emphasis on sailing ability, although many have self tacking jibs which limit off wind performance. Earlier boats (pre, say 2008) not as well thought out or built as some of the competitors as the yard was originally set up in East Germany to build cut price obsolete Swedish boats. So not as sophisticated design and construction as say Bavaria at the time. Relatively few sold in the UK in the early days but some models like the 34 and 37 are sought after.

Thanks again, most helpful

 

[ashtead]

Hopefully All answered above - I would just say as a former owner of a 2001 34 Bav if looking now I would try to find a larger engine ie29 as opposed to19hp . Also check they have electric windlass and shower fitted. In these years the list of extras for Bavaria was fairly long even if low base price - ones with lower numbers had fairly naff yellow berth cushions but hopefully those now long gone and berth cushions fairly thin depth I recall. I sailed a 36 around Croatia for a few weeks charter and better but I found the space around wheel or lack of annoying but the galley is larger. Also sailed larger ones around Sardinia and seem to be as simple even if the in mast reefing has to be watched more carefully than the simple drop main which is better on smaller ones. If looking get your name down with Clipper marine and see what they can turn up. I’m afraid I don’t know a lot on the later 2006 ones but the interior fit out changed I recall as said -personal choice if a blond type interior suits but don’t know how they stand test of time . As said marketed around low 40k and should close price around £39k depending on what refurbs after 22 years. A number of magazine test articles at the time but boat reviews tend to be positive with a few exceptions . Try to lay your hands on these if you can maybe via owners forum.

 

[Bobc]

Have a look here mjambo.de

Apart from giving you a good idea of what the boat is like inside it will put to bed a lot of the stuff about the capability of the boat raised here. That model only ran for 3 years and numbers sold were much lower than earlier boats, partly because of the financial crisis. As I explained in another post, although Bavarias tend to all look the same because of the strong house style there is a lot of variation and the 34 is the ultimate development of the J&J design philosophy and is a more substantial boat than some earlier iterations. You have to watch the model "sizes" as they often bear little relationship to the actual length so direct comparisons are not always easy.

When I sold my 37 the 34 you are looking at was top choice if I went for a used boat, but even then (2015) they were difficult to find. I think it is the best of the smaller J&J boats with the slight reservation that the drop down transom did not work as well as it should. Otherwise it is pretty much all there in terms of what you are looking for.

I assume the one you are looking at is in Woolverstone. Looks fine in the ad and has all the right gear - even the transom has been sorted! However be wary of the teak decks. Good thing is that they are just stuck on rather than screwed, but downside is that they are just a thin overlay, so wear may mean there is not enough thickness to recaulk effectively. On the photos there is evidence of failed caulking where there are damp patches. This can be sorted with local recaulking, but if the adhesion to the deck has also failed more drastic action is needed. Easy to tell because the teak will be springy around the glue failure. Some people have removed the teak completely as the non slip is there underneath, but this is a massive dirty job. Asking price is probably on the high side if major teak work is needed.

Starting point is obviously view the boat first and see if it grabs you and your family. It has good "kerbside" appeal which is underpinned by solid construction and good gear.

Good advice from someone who knows what he's talking about.

 

[geem]

While the build quality is high on a HR, any nearly 30 year old boat is likely to need a bunch more money spent on all the kit that has got old and is failing - engine, prop, tanks, canvas, electronics, upholstery, pumps, galley, winches, decks, and more that you don't expect.

The 11 year old boat, apart from sails and standing rigging, should be pretty much ready to go.

There are many classic cruisers kept in very good condition

It is too easy to generalise about a make that has such a wide range of boats. Some models are indeed light displacement for their length, as you say particularly the early J&J smaller designs of the late 90s early 2000s. Bigger boats at the same time (like Bobs) were not - in particular the "Ocean" series were similar displacement, size for size to contemporary Moodys and indeed HRs. On the other hand the Farr designs that started to come in around 2010 are much heavier. My 33 is over 5.5tonnes, well over a tonne more than an earlier J&J 33 or even 34. Part of this is because of greater volume of the hull (shorter ends, beam carried aft). A Farr 37 is 7.5 tonnes - much the same as an HR 372 and 2 tonnes heavier than my old J&J 37 from 2001.

Having said that displacement as we know is only one measure and you can't avoid the fact that most Bavarias in the smaller sizes (below 40') over the last 20 years or so are generally flatter bottomed and lightly ballasted so don't behave like an HR. Once you accept that and sail them to their strengths they are very satisfactory.

Edit Bob posted while I was typing. Just out of interest you could do a similar comparison between a Moody 38 and an Ocean 38 with similar results.

The move to wide arsed designs is to provide more accomodation not increase the performance or seakeeping qualities. One of the implications of wider sterns and the subsequent additional fit out of that space is the weight now placed aft. The designers has to adjust things. The heavy stern means the keel has to go forward to compensate. As a result of moving the keel forward, the mast has to go forward. This results in small headsails and large mains. Not necessarily a performance advantage. Just look at how far back the Imoca 60 masts are and how many headsail furlers they run if you want to see a performance rig.
The wide arsed hull is all about maximising accommodation whilst pretending the hull is following the racing boat fashion.
If you want a good motion and a seakindly hull, look at the more conservative hull designs with a deep forefoot.

 

[V1701]

To the OP I would look at all boats within my size & price range and treat each on it's merits - an older boat with new engine, sails & standing rigging might well be a better bet than a 20 year old boat still on it's original everything. As you aren't going to be crossing oceans prioritising heavy weather performance would be a bit like buying a holiday home based on it being perfect for when the extended family come over...

Good luck with your search...

 

[HappyAfloat]

For further research, a thread listing more YouTubers who sail a Bavaria.

bavariayacht.org/forum/index.php/topic,2674.0.html