gypsy moth, waste of money?

A trust to introduce disadvantaged kids to sailing in a fleet of AWBs?

What a terrifying prospect!

Some years ago I was sitting in Ostende in my much older, non-publicly funded, wooden boat, which incidentally steers very nicely, when a bunch of harrassed looking Englishmen came along the pontoon. I offered them a drink and it turned out that they were some of the instructors off the Shaftesbury Homes' ketch "ARETHUSA", seeking an escape for a few minutes from the truly evil brats that they had to take to sea. They were univerally of the view that the experience was doing their horrid charges no good at all, but was doing dreadful things to the instructors!

We British seem to have been badly affected by Kurt Hahn's ideas about what is good for little monsters. Is there any real, objective, evidence that Outward Bound type dragging of "disadvantaged" brats to sea against their will does any good? Does it really build their little characters? If it does, why does every surveyor I know tell horror stories about the way that the accomodation on such boats has been wrecked by the litttle monsters?

There is quite a track record of attempts to improve the lot of teenage troublemakers by dragging them off to sea. These attempts (Captain Scott, Arethusa, etc) do not seem to have been conspicuously sucessful.

Please can we leave the juvenile deliquents where they belong, rather than dragging them off to sea to have their little characters built?

My son belongs to the Sea Scouts; it is not exepensive and not class ridden. I believe the same can be said of the Sea Cadets. Both these organisations have ample experience with youngsters who DO want to find out about the sea. There is really no shortage of opportunity for "disadvantaged youth" if they want to
do some sailing, but let is stop pretending that it does the little monsters any good, and above all let us stop wasting public money on it.
 
Re: A trust to introduce disadvantaged kids to sailing in a fleet of AWBs?

I hear what you say and it depressed me greatly. However there are a huge number of inner city kids who get no experience of the outside world. These are the ones that I feel could benefit... I was not fererring to juvenile delinquents, but rather the disadvantaged, in the true meaning of the word, rather than those serving out their asbos!
 
In that case

I do believe that the Sea Scouts, the Sea Cadets and the OYC do an excellent job.

I don't think there is any need for a fleet of AYBs
 
Re: A trust to introduce disadvantaged kids to sailing in a fleet of AWBs?

wow, i started something there.
some interesting points made for the restoration, but im still not convinced.
if CN are doing it as a charitable job, i must get into the charity line of work because to me there 300k profit will keep me happy for along time.
i still dont understand that if lots of people love g.m. then why did she nearly rot to death virtually unlooked at in our capital city in a major tourist spot, but now shes suddenly so much more popular and people will travel all round britain to catch a glimpse of a mast in a marina with a bunch of very lucky people(or people in the right circles) sipping pink gins on her deck.
i like paul gelder and i think he does a brilliant job on the mag and i have no doubt his intentions are true but----
it just sounds like another case of jobs for the boys.
as for the preserving our heritage arguments, they also all fall down on the fact it wasleft rotting in a dry dock full of mcdonalds wrappers, it seems people rightly or wrongly arnt that interested in a boat that went round the world many moons ago,lets face it there were a fair few before her, and people are more likely to be inspired in this day and age my people like ellen.
 
Re: A trust to introduce disadvantaged kids to sailing in a fleet of AWBs?

i would be interested to see if campers is in a financialy sound possition and is making enough of a profit to be able to take this on as a charitable project. seems a lot of money for repairs....
 
Re: A trust to introduce disadvantaged kids to sailing in a fleet of A

I empathise with your general political outlook but please remember there exists a body of young adults who do not have wealthy parents and yet somehow manage to steer clear of serious trouble with the law.

I don't want any more ARETHUSA's sailing around terrorising the French but there are worthwhile alternatives.
 
Agree entirely!

My own sons, for example!

But as noted the Sea Scouts, the Sea Cadets and the OYC are not exactly Public Schools - all are welcome, and they do a very good job.
 
Re: Agree entirely!

A rare occasion - me piping up twice in the same thread....
Mirelle was one of those I was thinking about who has a boat past its original best before date. I am delighted to note he has sons who have joined in with a club they want to belong to.
As an ex-Youth Centre Warden, I can assure you that very few kids are genuinely disadvantaged in all respects, and (free) opportunities are still there to be taken. The problem IMHO is that you can lead a horse to water..... but the worthy folk who provide the water sometimes get huffy when the horse ain't that thirsty.
As an ex member of the School Combined Cadet Force (Navy, but only 'cos we didnt' have to wear the uniform to school) and Youth Clubs, Teritorial Army et al, I not only indulged in the offered activities, but in the case of pretending to defend the Country, I got paid for it too(Note also the Army have a couple of Nich 55s that are available to use).
And I was a kid from the Trust Estates in Brixton.
BTW - most people I know/knew don't/didn't want to go to sea in any form, and never did!

Now to the other point I thought of, but is curiously missing from this thread.... Where is the Lottery grant in this, and why does it not qualify?
Secondly, the public throwing McDonalds wrappers everywhere is not new - look at Trafalgar Square any day. The pigeons haven't much respect for a decaying Nelson statue either. Could it possibly be that Greenwich is on the wrong side of the river, and too far out of the tourist route to attract real tourist loot and government subsidy?

Ho hum.


Jim
now where's that soddin' ship I ordered?
 
Campers

Camnpers are now own by the same Italian shoe company that owns Nautor Swan however it is alleged in Gosport, allegedly, that they are still having serious management problems.
 
Re: Agree entirely!

Well put!

I am completely in favour of teenagers and under, from wherever, however dragged up, who want to mess about in boats, doing so, provided they want to do so and are having fun. I am a bit uneasy about the idea that this DOES THEM GOOD, though!

The "Thalatta" takes East Anglian primary school children to sea and shows them something that they would not otherwise see - their coastline from seaward, and some local history and there are several similar old boats (the Excelsior, for example, or the Queen Galadriel) doing the same thing with slightly older young people.

I think the Cutty Sark has just scooped a Lottery Grant and I have an idea that the worthy folks who dish out the Lotterydosh don't like too much of it going in the same sort of direction - at least that was what was said in a local case in my own town.

(When Mirelle was 50 we had a birthday party and invited both previous owners and the builder, who wrote in the log, "Built her too well - you should have been back for a new one by now!")
 
Re: Campers

were any other yards approached to carry out the repairs. its not as if campers are cheap.
cn may have built the boat but surely it would of been fair play to tender the job out even as a charitable contract maybe somewhere up north.
 
Re: Shaftesbury Homes\' ketch \"ARETHUSA\"

A watch leader from ARETHUSA once crewed for me. He said that on occasions the teenage crew caused so much havoc ashore the French authorities have run them out of port... now there's a new target for Scuttlebutt @ Cherbourg 2005.
 
Re: A trust to introduce disadvantaged kids to sailing in a fleet of A

I have been reading this post, and by and large feeling that the restoration of GM IV is a wonderful thing, because she will be put to a very sensible and practical use, namely helping young people. So I cannot just let Mirelle get away with this comment.
Firstly, I have two takes on this subject.
1) My sons and I restored 3 old MGs. Not just to original, but to current modern standards, at leats the last two were. An MGB GT for fast road use, with 135 hp engine and original 'works' standard suspension and brakes, then an MG Midget to full race standard for hill climbs, very very fast with superb brakes and 5-speed gearbox, and finally an MG V8 'prototype, with all-round disk brakes, 250 hp engine bored to 4.3 litres and loads of extras. Fabulous on the track. The point of this is that I believe that GM should be not just restored, but upgraded. To make a historic yacht which is stable, stiff and fun to sail. Easy with today's technolgy. Then use her to teach self reliance, teamwork, and general social skills to young disadvantaged children.
Why?
2) because I was a governor of a school in S London, with 35 different home languages spoken by our pupils, where by and large the kids were having a lousy start in this country; and I was working in Feltham Young Offenders Institute, where some of the children in 'my' school would likely end up. Taking the youngsters out on a yacht, allowing them to experience something exciting, that we all take almost for granted, has a huge affect on their appreciation of what life could offer. A launching point perhaps to a more fulfilling future. We are after all talking about children often but not always from inner city homes who have no future whatever, and no knowledge or experience to build on. They will just end up as the future criminals or inadequates who become a drain on the rest of us.
Here endeth the lesson according to Becky
 
Re: A trust to introduce disadvantaged kids to sailing in a fleet of AWBs?

QUOTE............. "it seems people rightly or wrongly arnt that interested in a boat that went round the world many moons ago,lets face it there were a fair few before her, and people are more likely to be inspired in this day and age my people like ellen.........."

Don't think that is true, if it was not for the likes of Chichester, Knox Johnson, Rose, Clare Francis...remember her? pushing then new boundary's yachting may not have developed today in the way it has....o yes Ellen did a wonderful job but I dont think you can even compare the early adventure's with one of today with all its modern technology, money and outside assistance.

As for the boat maybe it did sail like a pig...maybe it was a heap of shite but compared with what??...something of today's technology...don't think that would be a fair comparison!!!

If sailing around in a modern piece of plastic forgetting how that piece of plastic actually evolved is a sad representation of our sport.

Paul.
 
Re: Campers

Couldn't agree more. virtually all the 'skilled' workers at campers seem to have been sacked these days anyway.
 
No its not a waste of money.
A) Boats and aeroplances - neither of which ever get much money for restoration, are as much part of our heritage as art and buildings are -yet millions of lottery and tax money is spent on putting some art in museums, so why not on this part of our history
B) At this moment in our countries evolution, any project like this is a good thing, because we are rapidly sliding into a ultilitarian society where every time anyone spends a bean on something other than a hostpital or school half the population throw their hands up in horror and decry the waste. Well I personally think that schools and hospitals are pretty wastefull and I'd rather see more projects like this and less utilitarian public sector expansion.
 
Re: I must get into

a line of work were a 300k job means 300k of profit. I like that margin. I wonder what they did with the costs.

The reason GM arrived at it's sorry state is not through the indifference of the public. The public may well have trusted that GM & Cutty Sark, being in the hands of experts at a museum, were being maintained for future generations.

It's true that the modern generation may well relate better to the technological whizz bangs of a funky'ish young heroine. It's just GM's luck that it's the grey haired old farts that are becoming the power in the land, with the money and the ability to make this project happen.

Yes it is jobs for the boys. The boys that Campers have as apprentices, the boys and girls at UKSA and the groovy old boys from the Royal Yacht Squadron.
 
Much of the heritage we do treasure is querky, individualistic, grossly extravagant when created, inefficient in it's original use and totally unjustifiable in utilitarian terms. Maybe that's why it is so valued now.

We are in danger of leaving nothing of our second half 20th century artifacts and experience as testament for future generations.

We are ruled by accountants and philistines and much has been removed from our lives in consequence. But not everything should be judged in monetary terms.

GM may not be at the zenith of yacht design of her time but in the hands of her owner did something inspirational. Of course she should be preserved and if enough generous parties can be found to fund it we should all be grateful.
 
Re:That was the case

[ QUOTE ]
While Crusader is hardly a global brand

[/ QUOTE ]
When I phoned them up for a quote in November and mentioned a winter discount, there was a sharp intake a breath followed by a claim the loft was extremely busy with post Caribbean hurricane work.

There probably is a place for a global sailmaker brand that emphasises value for money and cruising longevity in place of performance or high technology.
 
Re:That was the case

Ok I am beginning to warm to this enterprise now that I understand it is an enterprise that just happens to be founded on a yacht restoration.

You are correct about the importance of a long-term vision. We have seen public funded minority interest museums sprout up-north yet no one seemed to question what the long-term visitor demand would be.
 
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