Gybing when heading deep downwind on genoa alone in a fresh breeze...messed up

[FairweatherDave]

So I managed to bag the genoa?and completely destroy a decent gybe in fresh conditions. Showed up a complete lack of technique. What did I do wrong? Genoa would not pass behind the furling stay, trying to pull it through by force made me scared I'd tear the sail. Hope this description makes sense but I'm sure my timing / technique was off. I'm sure not having the main up to blanket and the fact it was full genoa have something to do with it......... I'd have done a lot better simply furling the sail gybing and unfurling again.... Any pointers much appreciated.

EDIT..............FURLING STAY = FORESTAY .....my bad! Left it like that so others contributions make sense

 

[RichardS]

I'm not sure what you mean by "furling stay" but, once you'd gybed the mainsail, I'm not sure why you couldn't pull the genoa over unless the sheet was caught around something. That happens to me a lot.

Generally speaking, when I have the genoa well-blanketed because I'm going deep downwind, I tend to furl it anyway as it's pretty useless. If I can be bothered, I sometimes pole it out to windward but usually lethargy reigns supreme.

I should add that if I'm feeling a bit lazy I simply tack round and skip the gybe altogether.

Richard

 

[ip485]

I suspect you are right and it happens to all of us.

Timing is indeed everything in my experience.

You can make life a lote easier by switching on the smelly thing, and accelerating before the gybe. Getting in as much of the sheet as possible of course helps,and being fast on the first bit of the pull to get the clew through all help. I have a big gap between stay and `Genoa, but then that is not something you can change.

Once it gets in a tangle it can be a major problem. Been there in a F7 and sorting it out on the foredeck is not ideal!

RichardS - crossed with you - a set up on larger yachts can be a furling Genny right up front, and a furling staysail behind (with either a big or small gap) and various forms of furling main (in mast or boom roller furling).

 

[FairweatherDave]

Sorry for not being clear Richard...."Furling stay" is what the leading edge of Genoa lives in... can't remember the correct term off hand. And the problem occurred when mainsail was stowed....

 

[dom]

Fairweather Dave,

Not an usual problem. The starting point as with any gybe in fresh conditions is to wait until the boat has plenty of speed (better steering) and a lull in the wind. Surfing a wave can be a good moment if your boat surfs well. This will ensure a moment of low AWS (apparent wind speed) which will make the gybe much easier. Also furl-in the sail a little if you are pushing boatspeed and/or struggling with control.

Next, don't appoach the gybe from a dead run with the airflow all over the place; rather approach from a deep broad reach with the wind settled in a nice laminar flow and your genny sheeted in a little. You must not let it wing around up close to the forestay and/or way up in the air. Move your jib fairleads forward if these are adjustable. When getting ready to gybe, spin the lazy sheet 2x around its drum and take in the slack (more turns risks snarls). Also reduce the working sheet to 2x turns.

Once you've found your moment: Ready Steady, Go! Now don't hesitate or be timid - that is tempting trouble. Get the boat over and as the genny breaks pull all of the slack in on the windward sheet - pull like crazy if you have to, just get it in. If this sounds too hectic then reduce sail size to suit). Settle the boat on a fast broad reach on the new gybe and then get back down to your desired course.

All will be fine and dandy!

 

[ip485]

My turn, now a little confused about your set up - is it two furling sails up front? If just one then my comments still largely apply.

 

[ip485]

BTW is that I have very big powered winches with two speed settings. However to support dom's comments I often tell the crew pull, pull, pull and then use the power, if you ahve the gybe right there isnt much weight on the sheet at the start of the pull.

 

[davidej]

You need to pull in on the lazy sheet before you gybe to prevent the sail going forward of the forestay

 

[FairweatherDave]

My turn, now a little confused about your set up - is it two furling sails up front? If just one then my comments still largely apply.

No. Just the standard cruising set up on a Konsort, Furling Genoa. No stay except the furler. Except a baby stay which gets in the way when tacking sometimes

 

[ip485]

Ah, ok sorry my misunderstanding.

 

[FairweatherDave]

Ah, ok sorry my misunderstanding.

I don't think I helped

 

[capnsensible]

It's often made easy by sheeting I need tight on the working side, taking up all slack in the lazy sheet. Then gybing. Worked for me a zillion times, also in heavy airs.

Also helped if you put a few rolls in the headsail first. ?

Edit to add, missed Doms post....top tips.

Also to add, practiced loadsa times in succession on increasingly windy days means it becomes straightforward with the confidence it gives. Well, like anything on a boat really!

 

[TernVI]

Blow by blow description of gybing in those circumstances:
Head up a little bit to get a little more speed
Sheet in the old sheet so that the clew is a good bit aft of the forestay, still out over the side of the boat with the sail pulling.
Take the slack out of the new sheet and put it on the winch.
Steer through the gybe, releasing the old sheet as the genny collapses.
Keep heading up until the sail blows through, then promptly bear off to a proper course as the sail fills.
Adjust sheet.

If there's lots of wind, furl the genoa say half way first.

 

[FairweatherDave]

Fairweather Dave,

Not an usual problem. The starting point as with any gybe in fresh conditions is to wait until the boat has plenty of speed (better steering) and a lull in the wind. Surfing a wave can be a good moment if your boat surfs well. This will ensure a moment of low AWS (apparent wind speed) which will make the gybe much easier. Also furl-in the sail a little if you are pushing boatspeed and/or struggling with control.

Next, don't appoach the gybe from a dead run with the airflow all over the place; rather approach from a deep broad reach with the wind settled in a nice laminar flow and your genny sheeted in a little. You must not let it wing around up close to the forestay and/or way up in the air. Move your jib fairleads forward if these are adjustable. When getting ready to gybe, spin the lazy sheet 2x around its drum and take in the slack (more turns risks snarls). Also reduce the working sheet to 2x turns.

Once you've found your moment: Ready Steady, Go! Now don't hesitate or be timid - that is tempting trouble. Get the boat over and as the genny breaks pull all of the slack in on the windward sheet - pull like crazy if you have to, just get it in. If this sounds too hectic then reduce sail size to suit). Settle the boat on a fast broad reach on the new gybe and then get back down to your desired course.

All will be fine and dandy!

Thanks Dom, that all makes really good sense.
And thanks davidej for putting it succinctly
I think furling the genoa a bit would help, I'm pretty sure we managed it twice in fairly quick succession and things get a bit blurred as to what happened. Fairly sure I did try to get some tension early on the lazy sheet on the second attempt but simply didn't turn fast enough. For stress avoidance and marital harmony I will work on this. I don't think boat speed was too much of an issue but in windsurfing the rig can go beautifully light as you get downwind at speed on a gybe......so I like the theory. ...
Need more experience in 20 knots!

 

[RichardS]

Sorry for not being clear Richard...."Furling stay" is what the leading edge of Genoa lives in... can't remember the correct term off hand. And the problem occurred when mainsail was stowed....

Ah, sorry, I mis-read your post.

I've never sailed in 20 knots with just the genoa in a situation where I've had to gybe it. I have so many problems with my sheets catching on the mast furniture during a normal tack that I would definitely think twice about gybing and would probably go for the long tack.

Richard

 

[johnalison]

Ah, sorry, I mis-read your post.

I've never sailed in 20 knots with just the genoa in a situation where I've had to gybe it. I have so many problems with my sheets catching on the mast furniture during a normal tack that I would definitely think twice about gybing and would probably go for the long tack.

Richard

Me too. I avoid jib-only sailing except in the lightest conditions because your range of options is limited, Nd it can make furling at the other end problematic. If at all possible, it is worth furling or part-furling the job, something I would routinely do with a poled-out foresail.

 

[RJJ]

It's better if the Genny is part-furled, almost to the point of non-overlapping the mast. The extra area isn't much good to you anyway if (1) it's flopping around due to waves, flapping and wearing itself out, and distracting you (2) it's really windy and you are doing hull speed anyway. Keep it small.

Then, the easiest way I have found to gybe (with mainsail up or not) is to keep the "old" jib sheet wound on. Tight enough that the clew is well aft of the forestay. Then when you gybe, the sail blows through to a "backed" position. Now pull in the "new" sheet, hand-tight. Finally, ease out the "old" sheet under control. With practice, you identify the sweet spot before the gybe such that you don't need to wind on at all on the new sheet. You may even find it's possible to cleat the sheet on both sides, in a "central" position such that you can gybe both ways without touching anything

With the full Genoa, it's much harder. You have all that expanse of cloth trying to pull forwards of the forestay. In order to control it, you have to heave miles of sheet in, which then makes the sail unstable at the clew.

 

[Catalina36]

If I understand your OP correctly, the main thing you got wrong was to allow the genoa enough slack to get anywhere near the forestay, by slackening the working sheet before hauling in the new one.

As Tern VI and RJJ have already said , take up the slack on the new sheet and get it on the winch before easing the old one so that the clew is always kept under control, clear of the forestay. The gybe takes place within the foretriangle with the genoa always under control and the clew not far off the mast, not billowing out ahead of the stay where it can be guaranteed to get wrapped. Even a full genoa in a fresh breeze can by gybed peacefully in this manner. It's akin to gybing the main by hardening the mainsheet to get the boom centred, then easing it on the other side rather than just letting it bang across with a slack sheet which is dangerous and can cause damage.

If singlehanded it helps greatly to have an autopilot to take care of course changes as you handle the sheets. Just hit the buttons and you're free to do the rest as the boat turns. Otherwise you'll be busier than a one-armed paper-hanger.

 

[dunedin]

Me too. I avoid jib-only sailing except in the lightest conditions because your range of options is limited, Nd it can make furling at the other end problematic. If at all possible, it is worth furling or part-furling the job, something I would routinely do with a poled-out foresail.

We are the opposite. Done lots of trips under jib/Genoa only, especially in stronger winds (other than tacking upwind).
Very relaxing and surprisingly fast, with no worries about booms when gybing. And reefing is so easy if the wind gets up any more.

As others have said, pulling the new sheet on tightly before releasing the old sheet normally makes gybing totally drama free. But if any concerns, simply furl and then unfurl on the new gybe (as we do with a furling asymmetric in lighter winds).

 

[capnsensible]

Ah, sorry, I mis-read your post.

I've never sailed in 20 knots with just the genoa in a situation where I've had to gybe it. I have so many problems with my sheets catching on the mast furniture during a normal tack that I would definitely think twice about gybing and would probably go for the long tack.

Richard

I can confirm the same routine as described in previous posts works! I learnt about gybing catamarans quite some tides ago on several Prouts. Far easier to wizz round in a quick gybe with that unique rig than even try to tack in lots of circumstances.
Moving on to more modern boats like Fontaine Pajot. Long distance delivering showed me that in bumpy seas, middle of ocean, running with Genoa, there was no way to get the bow round through the big stuff. Using that routine of controlling sheets and small headsail worked al the time.
In more sedate times, I get to skipper an Athena on short charters with up to 12 guests. If I decide to bimble off downwind with headsail, I can always gybe.....being careful of course not to wipe out the punters. So careful sheet control required. Conversely if I'm going upwind with main set and I want to tack, we just roll up the headsail, flash up the downwind engine and nip through the tack. One day I'm gonna sail that boat with no punters and chuck it around a bit!
Anyway, drifting back, tight sheets, gybe away. ?