gybe safety

[johnphilip]

I have been looking for a good solution to the old but potentially serious problem of accidential gybe injury.

Although always aware of the problem it was brought home to me sharply by an MAIB report of a fatality ( I can't now find it on their site ?) when on an Elan like ours with a bridge deck mounted main traveller the main trimmer was killed.
Apparently in gusty conditions on a reach the boat broached, but once the pressure eased the rudder took over and spun the boat right off to leeward for a gybe, the mainsheet slamming the casulty's head against the cabin bulkhead.
I remember the relative inexperience of the helm was mentioned, but I could have done a similar thing myself this year. We were reaching in confused sea where river and sea tides met, a club race so we had a one reef rather than the two the conditions indicated. The boat would not bear away. a strange resistance to the wheel? Not until the sheet was freed further did I realise I was pulling against the rudder stop on full lock!! The rudder was totally stalled. Had I not seen this in time we could easily spun into a gybe the same way as the rudder took back control

I move on to accepting that sometimes an accidental gybe is going to happen but how do we get some protection?

Now I know cabin roof travellers are one solution
I never felt very safe when the aft or centre mains of our previous boats swept like a scythe across the cockpit.

So what is the answer? I want to keep sailing a performance yacht.

A boom preventer? I admit I have never tried one but I doubt if I would set one up on any but the longest of legs. I am not sure I like the thought the main being held forward with the wind behind it?

A boom brake? Sounds good Can anyone recommend one they know works? This Winchard one looks OK http://www.proboat.co.uk/item.asp?prod_id=527&cat_id=26 but on their own demo the boom still travels pretty quickly, is it enough to take the evil out of the main sheet?

 

[PhilipH]

Apart from changing your mainsheet arrangement or fitting a preventer (you wouldn't if racing) then you are only left with a boom brake.
I fitted one of these Wichard boom brakes this year and it works well. Clearly, it allows the boom across in a gybe - it's designed to, but it takes the power and speed out of the gybe which is what you would be most concerned about in an accidental gybe. Bear in mind you will need strops and blocks near the shroud bases and rope clutches to set up the line for managing from the cockpit. SWMBO and I find it very useful for gybing when it's just the two of us - winch in the main somewhat (not fully), set up the boom brake and then we can gybe the boat and bring across the genny - it's like having another crew member. Great piece of kit.

 

[johnphilip]

Found it,
This was the link to the MAIB preliminary report. http://www.maib.gov.uk/publications/comp...7/buccaneer.cfm

 

[lw395]

I don't think gizmo's and novelties are a solution to inadvertant gybes.
Sail the boat within your limits.
Respect the forces and energy involved.
A competent sailor needs to be aware of the risk of gybing and not be in the way of the boom or sheet. On a dinghy let alone a yacht.
The helm needs to know when he is losing control and communicate wtih the crew.
If you cannot keep the boat from gybing of its own volition, the only thing that will work is a proper preventer, rigged from the clew end of the boom. If you restrain the boom near the kicker enough to make real difference in really rough conditions, it will probably just break.
Boom brakes are useful for controlling the boom when there is a lot of sea but not that much wind.
Sorry if this sounds harsh, but you need to face the facts.

 

[FairMaid]

You're a racer - I'm not - but I'm 100% with what lw395 is saying - use a preventer with a good angle

 

[dockmaster]

For any thing other than racing a good preventer from the end of the boom forward to the bow fairlead and back to the cockpit is a no brainer! (talking of boats upto about 40ft)

 

[dom]

I think that is a bit harsh. A preventer rigged at a good angle requires the boom to be right out where in rough conditions it has the risk of hitting a big wave. This can damage whatever the preventer is attached to or the boom itself. A boom brake which is designed to gradually give will cushion the shock from hitting a big wave and allows the boom to be set much closer to the centreline.

Regarding boom stress points the boombrake does not have to be set near the kicker. There is no reason not to set it much further back, where if the boom is strong enough to accept centre sheeting should not present a problem.

Your point re shouting a clear warning to the crew should the helm begin to struggle is spot on!

 

[johnphilip]

Quote
"I don't think gizmo's and novelties are a solution to inadvertant gybes.
Sail the boat within your limits"

So No innovation, no development ?

I agree that we should be aware of our limits but I also sail to enjoy cruising and the occasional race getting the best I can out of our boat. Let me give you another scenario from last summer.
A long run from the Orwell to Vlissingen, quite rough, Started 2AM took 15 hours. 3 very competent sailors on board. We took care that no-one loitered in the path of the mainsheet and were all OK but in the conditions helming needed concentration and sure enough there were a couple of gybes when the helm was distracted. Is a gizmo to cover this event not a good idea?
Funnily enough it was much easier to keep the boat on course on a near run than if you eased round to a broad reach

We did consider dropping the main and using only the part rolled Genoa It still would have been quite quick and possibly more in line with your philosophy. Getting in 3 hours or so later and more tired could be another factor

 

[FairMaid]

A good angle for a preventer is an appropriate angle - when running and the main is out to the shrouds take the preventer forward to the bow fairlead - if on a broad reach take it to mid fairlead if you have one. I hate using preventers - but the alternative is not something to contemplate.

 

[Racecruiser]

As already stated that is a bit harsh. Johnphillip sounds like an experienced chap seeking helpful opinions from others not a slapdown lecture.

As I see it the problem is when the boat broaches to windward from a reach - might be a wave, gust, inexperienced helm or all three - and as the boat recovers the helm is not centred or opposited lock applied. Result, involuntary gybe.

But how many rig a preventer or boom brake when reaching?

Never experienced a boom brake but they sound useful. I have experienced preventers rigged from chainplates to kicker (I agree may result in a boom breakage) and from bow to outer boom end. Only when charging downwind on a deep angle, on long legs (and on bigger boats than mine) - never did an involuntary gybe happen. Speed is sometimes your friend!

I guess it comes back to diligence on the helm with or without a preventer or brake and possibly a tiller enables a more intuitive and quicker helm adjustment before the gybe sequence starts.

A mark for central helm position on a wheel may help of course.

 

[johnphilip]

Thank-you PhilipH and racecruiser

 

[MarkJohnson12345]

For what its worth, I use a preventer, rigged from the end of the boom, down to the mid fairlead, then back to the cockpit, where it can be released when needed.

Its only a moments effort to rig it, and provides maximm safety.

Can understand that if you are racing thus continally changing course, it would be a pain to keep re-rigging, so maybe these other gadgets have a place.

Pays yer money and take your choice.

 

[lw395]

[ QUOTE ]
another scenario from last summer.

sure enough there were a couple of gybes when the helm was distracted.
. Getting in 3 hours or so later and more tired could be another factor

[/ QUOTE ]

Serial involuntary gybing.
Sorry this is just crap sailing.
No, not just crap sailing, dangerous crap sailing.
You can take my opinion or leave it, I don't really care, but I hope no one else is encouraged to follow your example.
The idea of continuing in an out of control fashion to avoid being more late and tired doesn't really deserve consideration. Uncontrolled gybes have a high injury rate, you are an accident (statistic) waiting to happen. I hope your crew read this, and think for themselves.

 

[charles_reed]

Most of the MAIB

reports are of boats with relatively inexperienced crews, wheel steering and probably insufficiently reefed. (Buccaneer and Roaring Meg)

In every instance the gybe was caused by the rudder being stalled (easy to do with a wheel and in a confused sea).

In the specific situation you were in, johnphillip, I'd suggest that, in the absence of a deeper reef, it would have been prudent to have run on headsail alone.

My boat has an above-mainhatch mainsheet horse, provision for 4 reefs in the main and tiller steering.

I frequently use a preventer, the suggestion of running it to the forward fairlead is impracticable on a swept-spreader rig such as the Elan, (unless on a full run, angle too acute) mine goes to a Barton 90 400 opening-cheek snatch block clipping onto the toerail half-way along the boat, which simplifies using a preventer on a reach.

The only serious inadvertent gybe I've had, occurred in Croatian waters as I was putting in a 3rd reef (no preventer) and it broke the gooseneck. It was the result of a thunderhead 90degree wind switch gusted from 5 to 7.

 

[johnphilip]

The Winchard does seem pricey for a single casting, but..
Once set up for the day is it failsafe, or do you have to keep tweaking it?
I do like the idea of something which gives a modicum of protection, also on more gentle days, perhaps when we are not as alert or if we are letting less experienced friends have a sail and we dont want to be hovering over them like a hawk "just in case"

 

[johnphilip]

Dear iw95
You wern't there. How do you become such an unpleasant and self- righteous judge.
I have already said it might have been better to drop the main, what more do you want?
I also said that no-one passed the main hatch and traveller without checking with the helm first.
A gybe when at full speed in a 33 footer with a twice reefed main was no big deal, the speed took out the power of the gybe
It was a grey day, no cloud to follow, no landmarks, just watching instruments and sails for 15 hours in quite a boisterous sea.
if you and your crew never have a moments lapse in that time ... I Doubt it

The point was we accepted there could be a gybe, adjusted and got on with it

 

[FairMaid]

You're dead right lw395 - pun intended - haven't followed all your contributions to this but I guess you are not a racer - don't understand that mindset - maybe my loss ? - but I doubt it - only done one race - the ARC (as crew) - only breakage was a tin-opener and loss of a dog bowl overboard - but I guess it's people with otherwise boring sailing in their vicinity who race ? - I sail west coast of Scotland where there are enough challenges without risking crew heads ! - my last contribution to this debate - but well done originator (sorry can't check your name without losing all this rant) for starting a lively debate !

 

[planteater]

Most accidental gybes are like minor burns and bruises. If you could avoid them you would - but they happen with no major harm done.

I enjoy sailing goosewinged with an improvised preventer when others are motoring. I know it's risky and I keep my head down. It sometimes goes wrong but I havent broken anything/anybody yet.

Accidental is not the same as unanticipated.

 

[Seanick]

[ QUOTE ]
I have been looking for a good solution to the old but potentially serious problem of accidential gybe injury.






Is the problem really old? Surely its a product of the modern burmudan rig and boats with fin keels that have poor directional stability.

When we gybe our lugger, we go 'oh, we have gybed'. A little helm and we flip it back again. No Boom, no fuss.
Oh, the combined sail area of the main and mizzen is just over 1000 sq ft.

Modern boats? Down-right dangerous !

 

[tangomoon]

Inclined to go with you on this

I always tell everybody to stay away from the mainsheet - if they ignore me I tell them in other terms - even then I have seen someone slammed across the boat by the mainsheet - heavy bruising but even then lesson not learned fully