Guess what question I sometimes ask YM candidates.

[capnsensible]

Wrong but feel free to interpret as you wish. I was simply try to point out to anyone putting themselves forward for an exam that they do not need to have digested every page of 5011. The exam for many is an intimidating experience. For anyone to suggest that I am questioning the integrity of the RYA and MCA is an utterly bizarre interpretation of my posts. The point of my last comment was that we are all human. However, lesson learned.

I think it's a fair question. A candidate may be asked any number of questions from any of the courses.....apart from Ocean, of course.
Whilst there is no requirement to complete a Coastal theory course before the practical exam, lots of feedback to me suggests it's flipping handy. And, of course, sources of surveys, chart corrections and the use of 5011 is taught amongst the billion other things.

So when it comes to exam preparation, I've always found that candidates know about 5011, but may never have opened it. So I always get them to spend a short time getting up to speed with the layout and chapters to avoid getting bogged down during the exam. Amongst the other billion things.....

 

[dunedin]

How do you know that there have been any updates to that particular chart since 2002? Lots of charts are rarely updated.

As it’s not UK waters, quite possible that the paper chart has already been withdrawn by UKHO. Although they have delayed the end date for withdrawal of paper in the UK, they have already started withdrawing some overseas charts.

 

[capnsensible]

As it’s not UK waters, quite possible that the paper chart has already been withdrawn by UKHO. Although they have delayed the end date for withdrawal of paper in the UK, they have already started withdrawing some overseas charts.

I tried looking on the Admiralty website but I'm not a computer nerk so I binned searching. It used to be so easy until a few electron fetishists took over!

That's a joke, BTW for all you gadgeteers.

 

[mattonthesea]

We will have to agree to differ. Firstly I don’t expect any candidate to have digested and learned every symbol in 5011. I remember when I was doing rule of the road tests as part of the RN Hydrographic Squadron they always used to throw in a symbol at the end as a little tester to see how well we knew charting symbols. I freely admit that there were often obscure symbols that I couldn’t remember. However as I’ve said before so long as you know where to look them up that’s absolutely fine. Perhaps you’d be amazed at the number of candidates who don’t know where to look things up?

Regarding the difficulty of the question, I think knowing something about data sources and the information on the chart showing you how confident you can be in the data is a pretty basic level of knowledge. Sadly it’s lacking in lots of sailors nowadays as we believe what’s on the screen without question. How many people go aground or hit reefs in distant lands because they’ve grown up sailing where they know or experience the charting to be entirely accurate. They’re then amazed that the reefs aren’t where the chart says it is.
There are very few black and white pass/fail questions or moments in a YM Exam. You always have to remember that there’s no such thing as the perfect candidate and nerves and exam pressure take their toll. You get an overall picture of a candidate and you make a judgement.
Of course if you are really concerned you can approach the RYA and ask their opinion. I’m fairly confident that the powers that be might already be watching this thread with interest.

I don't often engage with arguments on these forums but I have to support John here. Having been involved in information management and education, as well as a nurse, for most of my working life I can suspect that the question would not be "What's wrong with this chart?" so much as "What does this dashed line mean?" A promising candidate would probably answer something to the likes of "It looks like an extension of the depth contour but I'm not sure. I'd best look it up." My first port of call would be the local almanac, if present, before wading into the 5011!

We used to do something similar for nurses on their degree programme. In the practise ward we would ask them to give the prescribed medicines for the day and time. Before they gave them we would ask them to tell us what the contra-indications and side effects were. This involved them knowing their way around the British National Formulary (the drugs bible).

I was very impressed with my YMO exam. There were three candidates, one of whom we all knew would fail as he didn't seem to take any notice of any advice on the prep days. Within two hours he had insisted on trying to take us down the bows of a big ship! The other candidate only just had the requisite time in tidal waters. He first showed his lack of understanding when heading straight for the port rather than upwind and up tide; we ended up downwind and down tide. His second was to anchor under sail; again he didn't take the tide into consideration. And the third involved mooring under sail, with the same result. He also had a bit of a problem with secondary ports. But the examiner gave him these second chances to show that the first was not a mistake, or nerves. And there was just a hint of 'you could rethink your approach' after each.

The examiner had already ascertained that I was comfortable with these so he gave me harder stuff - I've always thought to this was to find the edges of my ability, which he did. And then he tested me on it, and I learnt from it. I've always remembered the gist of his first words to us that he was here to examine us, but he was foremost a coach. We had a debrief about just about every task he set and the alternative ways of approaching it. Although I was very much concentrating on passing I was , in the background, aware of the techniques he used to assess us. From what I've heard, even from people who say they've failed for some tiny reason, most YMO examiner seems to work in a similar way.

BTW my first response to the OP was "Where's Jenny? Despite the caution I want to sail over her!"

 

[capnsensible]

Good news for all not computer nerks! I found a 5011 pdf download for free! The search was mebbe 20 seconds and the download probably 2.

How do you say 'go me' in 1's and 0's?

 

[AngusMcDoon]

How do you say 'go me' in 1's and 0's?

0x67 0x6F 0x20 0x6D 0x65

 

[laika]

0x67 0x6F 0x20 0x6D 0x65

That’s hex. Try:
110000101010100100111111

 

[Stingo]

Good news for all not computer nerks! I found a 5011 pdf download for free! The search was mebbe 20 seconds and the download probably 2.

How do you say 'go me' in 1's and 0's?

Go on, post the link for others.

 

[capnsensible]

Go on, post the link for others.

I'm reluctant to do that coz you just know someone will drip. But, everyone, it's easy.

 

[Buck Turgidson]

I found the Singapore equivalent which looks to be a like for like copy.
I was tested extensively on seabed symbols on my YM practice and did not do myself proud!! Not bad enough to fail thankfully but did make me do some homework afterwards just from the shame

 

[Uricanejack]

Ok, I admit it. I was stumped.
I am just a bit slow, I pretty much took it as the answer is 42 . What was the question.
So we’ll done to those who figured it out.

Perhaps. In an exam situation, you don’t have to guess the question, you just have to answer it.
My answer being it’s to deep to bother with or to far inshore to care probably wouldn’t cut it.
I personally don’t know every symbol in Cart 1. I do know how to find them.
You can learn something every day.

I probably would ask. The candidates if the chart in use was up to date. perhaps I am just picky. There again it is a question I expect to be asked when audited. So I would expect it to be an easy answer. For anyone expecting a professional qualification.

Two questionsI might ask. Though not obvious from this particular picture. In an area of multiple islands eg Caribbean Canaries possibly even the Hebrides.

How and why would you transfer your position from this chart to the next?

How and why would you take an observed position where there are a few islands? particularly a channel between two.

The clue to what I am looking for is in JM’s question and answer.

Just one of my opinions, A good practical exam should also be a learning experience.
In other words you don’t have to know everything, and you should go awa6 having learned something useful.

 

[Beneteau381]

We will have to agree to differ. Firstly I don’t expect any candidate to have digested and learned every symbol in 5011. I remember when I was doing rule of the road tests as part of the RN Hydrographic Squadron they always used to throw in a symbol at the end as a little tester to see how well we knew charting symbols. I freely admit that there were often obscure symbols that I couldn’t remember. However as I’ve said before so long as you know where to look them up that’s absolutely fine. Perhaps you’d be amazed at the number of candidates who don’t know where to look things up?

Regarding the difficulty of the question, I think knowing something about data sources and the information on the chart showing you how confident you can be in the data is a pretty basic level of knowledge. Sadly it’s lacking in lots of sailors nowadays as we believe what’s on the screen without question. How many people go aground or hit reefs in distant lands because they’ve grown up sailing where they know or experience the charting to be entirely accurate. They’re then amazed that the reefs aren’t where the chart says it is.
There are very few black and white pass/fail questions or moments in a YM Exam. You always have to remember that there’s no such thing as the perfect candidate and nerves and exam pressure take their toll. You get an overall picture of a candidate and you make a judgement.
Of course if you are really concerned you can approach the RYA and ask their opinion. I’m fairly confident that the powers that be might already be watching this thread with interest.

 

[Beneteau381]

We will have to agree to differ. Firstly I don’t expect any candidate to have digested and learned every symbol in 5011. I remember when I was doing rule of the road tests as part of the RN Hydrographic Squadron they always used to throw in a symbol at the end as a little tester to see how well we knew charting symbols. I freely admit that there were often obscure symbols that I couldn’t remember. However as I’ve said before so long as you know where to look them up that’s absolutely fine. Perhaps you’d be amazed at the number of candidates who don’t know where to look things up?

Regarding the difficulty of the question, I think knowing something about data sources and the information on the chart showing you how confident you can be in the data is a pretty basic level of knowledge. Sadly it’s lacking in lots of sailors nowadays as we believe what’s on the screen without question. How many people go aground or hit reefs in distant lands because they’ve grown up sailing where they know or experience the charting to be entirely accurate. They’re then amazed that the reefs aren’t where the chart says it is.
There are very few black and white pass/fail questions or moments in a YM Exam. You always have to remember that there’s no such thing as the perfect candidate and nerves and exam pressure take their toll. You get an overall picture of a candidate and you make a judgement.
Of course if you are really concerned you can approach the RYA and ask their opinion. I’m fairly confident that the powers that be might already be watching this thread with interest.

"I'm fairly confident that the powers that be might already be watching this thread with interest." Why would they be watching an obscure thread on a forum?
I have been in regular contact with "Dave" regarding concerns I have about the way that "some" of their officers interact with members. I did ask for a question to be asked at the AGM. Your post has reminded me that I need to ask Dave for a copy of the minutes to see if my question was asked.

 

[john_morris_uk]

"I'm fairly confident that the powers that be might already be watching this thread with interest." Why would they be watching an obscure thread on a forum?
I have been in regular contact with "Dave" regarding concerns I have about the way that "some" of their officers interact with members. I did ask for a question to be asked at the AGM. Your post has reminded me that I need to ask Dave for a copy of the minutes to see if my question was asked.

Why watching? Because I know that the RYA take an interest in social media and how the organisation and qualifications are perceived/criticised.

Obscure thread? YBW is easily searched (by Google) for references to the RYA. It’s a few seconds work.

 

[benjenbav]

The underlying purpose of the YM examination is to test whether a candidate has the knowledge, skills and experience necessary to be in charge of a crewed yacht both offshore and inshore.

In many instances the examiner will be less interested in the answer to a specific question than in the manner of answering.

So, for John’s broken contour lines, it’s likely to be acceptable either to say immediately “unsatisfactory data; treat with caution” or “let me look that up” and, subsequently, “unsatisfactory data; treat with caution”. Less acceptable would be an admission of ignorance coupled with no idea what to do about it.

 

[john_morris_uk]

The underlying purpose of the YM examination is to test whether a candidate has the knowledge, skills and experience necessary to be in charge of a crewed yacht both offshore and inshore.

In many instances the examiner will be less interested in the answer to a specific question than in the manner of answering.

So, for John’s broken contour lines, it’s likely to be acceptable either to say immediately “unsatisfactory data; treat with caution” or “let me look that up” and, subsequently, “unsatisfactory data; treat with caution”. Less acceptable would be an admission of ignorance coupled with no idea what to do about it.

Which is exactly what I said the correct approach would be.

 

[benjenbav]

Which is exactly what I said the correct approach would be.

I was trying to agree with you.

 

[john_morris_uk]

I was trying to agree with you.

We seem to be in agreement.

 

[doris]

Here’s your only clue.
View attachment 151425

This is by far the best thread I’ve seen for ages. A great reminder to keep revising the YM syllabus etc, just to keep everything fresh.
Yes, I’m YMO but I haven’t looked at all the books, 5011, etc for years. If John was local to me I would love to buy a day of his time to be grilled and got some way back up to date, I’m sure it would be a very humbling day!!
I thank you John for your input.

 

[Daedelus]

One sailing school I heard of had a regular examiner who used to ask for a list of distress signals. Almost every candidate would reply "a burning tar barrel on deck" and would invariably get the reply "if you've got a tar barrel on board I'll accept that as an answer".

As a bit of a laugh the school found you could get quite a small tar barrel (about size of a party 4 - remember them? - or smaller) and purchased one and kept it on board to produce the next time he examined someone. Everybody was very saddened when he died and they were unable to go through with their joke.