Greenland: You boat of choice?

[NormanS]

Insulation, both for the boat and the crew.
The insulation on most standard boats is woefully inadequate.

 

[John Barry]

No I'm happy to hear all sides of the equation. All very interesting. Purpose of this for me is a long term trip planned in about 2-3 years.

We've been planning for about 4 years so far, and preparing the boat. Current schedule is to leave for Iceland next June, then two seasons in East Greenland (return to Iceland in between).

No plans for NW passage, but after a couple of hours in the pub who knows what we'll decide to try.

All we need to do now is to find someone stupid enough to come along and do all the work

 

[oldfatgit]

How about this? http://www.tradewind.talktalk.net/ seem pretty good to me.

 

[Seajet]

First of all, GRP is unsuitable for use in water where you WILL encounter ice; it has poor resistance to abrasion, and will rapidly degrade from repeated contact with minor ice floes or bergy bits. The gel-coat will soon go around the waterline, and then it's a matter of time before the laminate starts degrading. Steel is the preferred contruction; aluminium and wood are OK (wood can be protected with sacrificial planking around the bow and waterline). Of course, the interior of a metal hull should be suitably insulated.

Second, you MUST be able to get out of the wind. So, a pilot house or similar is a good thing. But you need good visibility from it; ice in the water can be hard to spot, and you don't want to hit anything too big.

Third, the rig must be handy; if working in ice you need to be able to tack etc. quickly to take advantage of leads. Ketch or schooner are a good idea, to split the rig up into smaller sails.

A really reliable engine with ample power will be very useful!

The rudder and stern-gear should be well protected; ice floes frequently project horizontally below the water, and of course ALL lumps of ice are mostly below the water. Sailing ships designed for operation in ice often had retractable rudders and stern gear.

Heating, of course - but that isn't as big an issue as you'd think; sea-water never gets below about -2 or-3 degrees C, so the hull can only get that cold.

If I were going there, I'd regard a radar as being a very desirable extra; in calm conditions, it can get foggy, and you want to see what ice is around you.

A rifle if in the Arctic, and the skill to use it. Polar bears on the ice might well think you look just what they want for a snack between seals! But don't use it unless it is you or the Polar Bear; apart from the ethics, the paper-work if you kill a Polar Bear is probably worse than if you kill the first mate. Some people have reported that a shotgun works; the advantage is that you're unlikely to kill a Polar bear with a shot gun. Disadvantage is that you might just annoy it!

It is worth considering stores. The best laid plans could go pear-shaped, and you end up having to over-winter in an ice harbour. Ample emergency rations should be carried, along with fuel - and remember that fuel isn't just for cooking and heating, it's for melting drinking water as well, whi8ch uses a LOT more fuel. Whatever, you need to be COMPLETELY self-sufficient while up there.

As an aside, I understand that Greenland and Svalbard both insist on bonds being posted against the possibility of rescue being required. There's no RNLI or Coastguard in those waters.

AntarticPilot,

thanks very much for that; while I'm unlikely to visit Greenland myself unless I really cock up the nav from the South England coast, it's fascinating to read.

 

[Tim Lamb]

Books of Interest Maybe...

If you like reading, two books you might like are:-
'Sea, Ice & Rock', which is a about a trip to Greenland by Robin Knox-Johnston and Chris Bonnington in Suhaili (Johnston's round the world yacht); the sailer teaching the climber to sail and vica-versa.
And, 'Time on Ice', which is about Deborah Shapiro and Rolf Bjelke spending a winter in Antartica on their 40' yacht.
Both very readable.
Regards.

 

[PITCAIRN]

I've seen a boat for high latitudes with a sort of "crow's nest" on the mast about where a radar scanner is often fitted, for spotting leads in the ice. Looked rather ugly and topheavy though, so I don't think I'd have that. Thinking laterally, I suppose a steerable camera at the top of the mast would do the job.

Pete

Something like this ? I would'nt leave port without it - its beautiful !

 

[30boat]

The hull would have to be metal and quite thick at that.on top of that an enclosed wheelhouse and a very good heater with fuel tanks to match.Loads of storage and a manageable rig with steps on the mast.And the will to be in the cold ,that I don't think I'd have, would also be a requirement.

 

[Koeketiene]

Ok here is a hypothetical question and I'd be interested to hear what people would say. This isn't a test I'm just genuinely curious.

If you were to sail to Greenland and explore the coast and Baffin Bay for at least 6 months what sail boat would you take and justify it. Feel free to pad it out with the types of stuff you'd have on board. Would you want an enclosed wheelhouse, ketch rigged, two foresails, center cockpit?

Check this website: Morgans Cloud.

These people did exactly what you're asking about last Summer.
They are strong advocates of steel or alliminuim boats for high-lattitude cruising.

 

[TimBennet]

First of all, GRP is unsuitable for use in water where you WILL encounter ice

Funny that many of the people who have actually sailed in these waters don't think so.

Getting to Greenland from the UK probably means you are going to have to sail upwind across the North Atlantic just to get there. So think carefully about loading your boat up with top hamper like steps and crow's nests.

If I was forced to choose between a steel hull or a satellite link capable of downloading ice and weather forecasts in detail, then I would opt to have the better information. Active safety based on experience, skill, good judgement and thorough preparation will prevail rather than the 'passive' security that a steel hull may offers a boat of small yacht size.

 

[TimBennet]

Check this website: Morgans Cloud.

These people did exactly what you're asking about last Summer.
They are strong advocates of steel or alliminuim boats for high-lattitude cruising.

And then they add: "Having said all that, fibreglass boats having few or none of the features mentioned above have made safe and seamanlike voyages to the high latitudes. The foremost example being Willy Ker who has made a series of incredible voyages to both the Arctic and Antarctic—that make ours in Morgan’s Cloud look like a walk in the park—in a standard Contessa 32. Like so many things in cruising there is no right or wrong answer, just opinions, of which this is ours."

 

[Boreades]

I'd be tempted to go back 2,000 years and use a design made by the Veneti (think ancestors of the Vendee Globe boat builders)

‘The Gauls’ [Veneti] ships were made with much flatter bottoms [than Roman ships] to help them ride shallow water caused by shoals or ebb tides. Exceptionally high bows and sterns fitted them for use in heavy seas and violent gales, and the hulls were made entirely of oak, to enable them to stand any amount of shock and rough usage. The cross-timbers, which consisted of beams a foot wide, were fastened with iron bolts as thick as a man’s thumb. The anchors were secured with chains instead of ropes. They used sails of raw hides or thin leather, either because they had no flax and were ignorant of its use, or more probably because they thought that ordinary sails would not stand the violent storms and squalls of the Atlantic and were not suitable for such heavy vessels … adapted for sailing such treacherous and stormy waters. We could not injure them by ramming because they were so solidly built, and their height made it difficult to reach them with missiles or board them with grappling irons. Moreover, when it began to blow hard and they were running before the wind, they weathered the storm more easily; they could bring in to shallow water with greater safety, and when left aground by the tide had nothing to fear from reefs or pointed rocks.’​

As reported by Julius Caesar, in part 3 of The Gallic Wars.

 

[Blueboatman]

I would be inclined to fit a piece of modified D section rubber down the bows edge if having to mess with icy bits at night. And rig a simple 'expendable' alloy prodder in front of the bow rather than let the stemhead fitting take any unforeseen impact.

To the R36 chap, have you insulated the lockers and quarterberth sides and underdeck/undercockpit areas?
I now use with great success foil-backed 18mm closed cell insulation available from the diy 'sheds' and builders merchants (cheaper). This is trimmed to push fit each space using a boxcutter knife then has vinyl glued to the visible face matching the vinyl in the rest of the boat.

I would be mighty tempted to laminate insulation between the stringers and stiffeners in the forecabin too, you then effectively get both insulation and a double skin for peace of mind..

To anyone thinking of insulating their boat: Took me many revisions to simplify the process to this, so this simple tip comes to y'all after quite a few ( many several in fact) hours experimenting and improvising..Excellent results though

 

[Koeketiene]

Like so many things in cruising there is no right or wrong answer, just opinions, of which this is ours."

This is probably one of the most sensible things ever posted on here.

 

[NormanS]

Blueboatman.

Which way out did you fit the foil-backed foam?

 

[jdc]

Not a problem

True - my brother's girlfriend went on some kind of geological investigation in Svarlbard and they all had to do some skill-at-arms training and then carry at least one rifle per group at all times.

No idea how you'd handle the bureaucracy involved in this in the sadly firearm-paranoid UK

Pete

A little of drift, but we went to Svalbard this summer just past, sailing mostly 2 up from Falmouth to Longyearbyen and then cruised around the NW of the archipelago before coming back to Falmouth.

Rifle We got onto a course run by Cambridge University for field workers in the arctic, and spent a jolly day at Mildenhall range firing live rounds at imaginary bears. I guess it helps to have friends in BAS and CASP, but there must be similar courses elsewhere. I also contacted Suffolk Constabulary, and once they'd got their heads around the project they were really helpful and I got a firearms certificate/licence. Ing Paulson AG in Longyerabyen hired us a rifle (1942 bolt-action Mauser, complete with imperial eagle and swastika!) and sold us ammunition, using the firearms certficate as proof of suitability. I understand that the Norwegians, after the tragic shooting spree by that loony last year, are tighter in asking for such paperwork than hitherto. I'm told that in Greenland it's easier to buy a rifle than it is a beer...

R&D bond When one applies for permission to the Sysselmannen, they set the bond, presumably determining the amount as a function of the perceived risk (of having to rescue you). They set ours at NOK 150,000 (about £15,000). We got insurance for this for about £140 - in fact we couldn't get it just for £15,000 as the minimum was for £50,000.

Boat I think GRP boats are fine - we didn't intend to, nor have to, force through ice, which I think this is unusual even in Greenland. Although in Antarctica a pilot house or at least semi-rigid sprayhood is probably essential, in the arctic it's a lot less so: in summer the weather is really quite quiet.

Equipment Yes, we took quite a lot!

 

[oldvarnish]

First of all, GRP is unsuitable for use in water where you WILL encounter ice; it has poor resistance to abrasion, and will rapidly degrade from repeated contact with minor ice floes or bergy bits. The gel-coat will soon go around the waterline, and then it's a matter of time before the laminate starts degrading.

I'm not going to disagree because you're a chap of huge experience, greater than mine.
But, our last boat was a production Biscay 36 circa 1982 and under the previous owner not only went to Antarctica but far enough south to claim the record for the GRP boat that had been furthest south in the world. This involved no small amount of ice contact.

When we bought her, we pointed this out to the surveyor who, despite forensic examination, could find no 'ice scars' anywhere on the hull - although he did spot some on the Avon dinghy!

They made 'em strong back then.

 

[prv]

Rifle We got onto a course run by Cambridge University for field workers in the arctic, and spent a jolly day at Mildenhall range firing live rounds at imaginary bears. I guess it helps to have friends in BAS and CASP, but there must be similar courses elsewhere. I also contacted Suffolk Constabulary, and once they'd got their heads around the project they were really helpful and I got a firearms certificate/licence. Ing Paulson AG in Longyerabyen hired us a rifle (1942 bolt-action Mauser, complete with imperial eagle and swastika!) and sold us ammunition, using the firearms certficate as proof of suitability.

I used to shoot three times a week as a teenager (.22 on Thursday and Friday afternoons at school, 5.56 or 7.62 on Wednesday afternoons at Ash Ranges, plus Tuesday afternoons teaching skill-at-arms (drill rounds only) to the Cadets). I also spent just under a year with the Army before going to university (albeit in the REME I handled a weapon considerably less often than I had at school ). So I'd be quite happy and safe carrying a rifle around, and reasonably confident I could hit a polar bear if it ever came to that (hopefully not).

My pessimism was down to some work colleagues attempting to resurrect a shooting club that had closed down some years previously, leaving a still-usable .22 range. The police complications involved were horrendous - existing clubs can continue to operate, but starting a new one appears to be more or less impossible. They've ended up as an air-rifles-only establishment for the foreseeable future.

I assumed that "I want a firearms certificate in case I need to shoot a polar bear" would go down even worse. Albeit I was imagining the weapon would be bought in the UK and kept aboard, bringing in all the considerations about secure storage etc.

Glad to hear it can be done, and that your local police were more supportive.

Pete

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Funny that many of the people who have actually sailed in these waters don't think so.

Getting to Greenland from the UK probably means you are going to have to sail upwind across the North Atlantic just to get there. So think carefully about loading your boat up with top hamper like steps and crow's nests.

If I was forced to choose between a steel hull or a satellite link capable of downloading ice and weather forecasts in detail, then I would opt to have the better information. Active safety based on experience, skill, good judgement and thorough preparation will prevail rather than the 'passive' security that a steel hull may offers a boat of small yacht size.

Well, I've only got experience of 6 seasons in Svalbard, Greenland and Antarctica. In every one of them it would have been impossible to avoid ice in coastal waters. every glacier continually calves small bergs and brash, which is OK if your hull can stand abrasion, but not otherwise.

 

[TimBennet]

Well, I've only got experience of 6 seasons in Svalbard, Greenland and Antarctica. . . .

So what sort of sailing boat did you go in?

Whatever your personal preference, the reality is that some of the THE most amazing arctic voyages to Greenland have been done quite safely in production GRP and old wooden boats. If you have more experience of sailing these water than Bob Shepton, Willy Ker, Judy Lomax and Sir Robin Knox Johnson, then feel free to dismiss their opinions.

But if not, just add your views to the mix so people can read ALL the accounts, weigh up the pros and cons, and make their own choice about how they would like to do such a trip. There a quite a few ways of skinning this particular cat.

Having spent a life designing and building boats for people with 'high latitude' aspirations, I can tell you that the success or not of such trips, is rarely dependent on the craft they choose.

 

[jdc]

Well, I've only got experience of 6 seasons in Svalbard, Greenland and Antarctica. In every one of them it would have been impossible to avoid ice in coastal waters. every glacier continually calves small bergs and brash, which is OK if your hull can stand abrasion, but not otherwise.

I think you're giving a counsel of perfection here.

Clearly for those who are in arctic or antarctic latitudes every year nearly all have chosen steel or Aluminium - we all agree, although I believe that Gore-Grime's boat is GRP albeit with special lay-up.

However most people I guess - certainly this applies to me - mix the occasional high latitudes trip with temperate or tropical cruising and so the boat is inevitably a compromise. One of these is that one can't be as adventurous when near ice and may have to back-off.

I'm sure you're much more knowledgeable than me, but I understood that ice isn't all the same stuff. Glacier ice, and its broken up bits like icebergs and bergy-bits, are fresh water, dense and hard as steel. It's not abrasion one has to fear but seriously hard bangs. I'm as worried for my skeg, rudder, and especially the prop, as I am by the GRP hull. A bergy bit weighing 50 tonnes will sink even a metal boat if struck at speed.

Frozen sea water on the other hand is comparatively soft - a bit like sorbet - but abrasive. I think that few yachts push through this as a mater of course for extended periods. It's also worth noting that 'timescale' Harland sailed extensively in these waters in a wooden boat.

PS: Were your trips on the J C-R?