Greek cruising tax update.
- Thread starter Appleyard
- Start date
nimbusgb
Well-Known Member
Good news that if you are out of the water no need to pay.
Now waiting for clarity on the monthly payment business.
Online payment ......... hmmmm, wonder how they will know if you have paid?
Some sort of 'tax disk?' where will they post it to? How long will it take to arrive, what happens if it doesn't arrive?
An online record? So port police will be wandering around with internet connected iPads?
I smell a cluster**** in motion!
Now waiting for clarity on the monthly payment business.
Online payment ......... hmmmm, wonder how they will know if you have paid?
Some sort of 'tax disk?' where will they post it to? How long will it take to arrive, what happens if it doesn't arrive?
An online record? So port police will be wandering around with internet connected iPads?
I smell a cluster**** in motion!
sailaboutvic
Well-Known Member
This rise another question , " Boats in transit through Greek waters under the terms of UNCLOS - the United Nations Convention of the Law of the Sea which allows free passage for all leisure craft, have no obligation to pay "
What do they class a yacht in transit ? In other words while transiting though Greek water are you able to stop over night ?
Answer found , it seen while on passages you are unable to enter the base line of that country unless there a problem
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Tony Cross
Well-Known Member
I don't think we will be using the TAXIS system directly, few of us have Greek tax numbers for example. My understanding is that the tax will be paid to an agent (whoever they turn out to be) and you will get a receipt. It is this printed receipt that you will have to keep with the boat papers and produce on request.
macd
Well-Known Member
If by that you mean entering Greek territorial waters, then there is nothing in UNCLOS to say that you must have a problem. Indeed, UNCLOS specifically states that "innocent passage" may including stopping/anchoring except "at a harbour or roadstead".
sailaboutvic
Well-Known Member
If that's the case it good news , open up lots of options
BUt not sure that's the case . I think it reads some think like this
"Passage of a foreign ship shall be considered to be prejudicial to the peace, good order or security of the coastal State if in the territorial sea it engages in any of the following activities:
traversing that sea without entering internal waters or calling at a roadstead or port facility outside internal waters; "
ITS the entering internal waters bit I am not sure off
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macd
Well-Known Member
I don't know how you came by that, sailabutvic. 'Prejudicial' activities are clearly defined in Article 19.2 and do not include the one you mention. Indeed,for the most part they're self-evidently prejudicial. Articles 17 and 18 deal with what we're interested in:
Article 17
Right of innocent passage
Subject to this Convention, ships of all States, whether coastal or
land-locked, enjoy the right of innocent passage through the territorial sea.
Article 18
Meaning of passage
1. Passage means navigation through the territorial sea for the purpose
of:
(a) traversing that sea without entering internal waters or calling at a roadstead or port facility outside internal waters; or
(b) proceeding to or from internal waters or a call at such roadstead or port facility.
2. Passage shall be continuous and expeditious. However, passage
includes stopping and anchoring, but only in so far as the same are incidental to ordinary navigation or are rendered necessary by force majeure or distress or for the purpose of rendering assistance to persons, ships or aircraft in danger or distress.
Article 17
Right of innocent passage
Subject to this Convention, ships of all States, whether coastal or
land-locked, enjoy the right of innocent passage through the territorial sea.
Article 18
Meaning of passage
1. Passage means navigation through the territorial sea for the purpose
of:
(a) traversing that sea without entering internal waters or calling at a roadstead or port facility outside internal waters; or
(b) proceeding to or from internal waters or a call at such roadstead or port facility.
2. Passage shall be continuous and expeditious. However, passage
includes stopping and anchoring, but only in so far as the same are incidental to ordinary navigation or are rendered necessary by force majeure or distress or for the purpose of rendering assistance to persons, ships or aircraft in danger or distress.
AntarcticPilot
Well-Known Member
The crucial bit is the bit about "internal waters". Innocent passage precludes entering "internal waters" - that is, waters inside the "base-line". The baseline is a line drawn round offshore islands, and between prominent capes; I've been involved in the drawing of one such baseline. Basically, any water that would be sheltered enough to be an anchorage or harbour for a yacht will almost certainly be "internal waters". I'd imagine that the whole of the Aegean would count as "internal waters" for Greece, given that all the islands are Greek; any possible baseline will run close to the Turkish coast. For example, the whole of the Minch is internal waters for the UK.
The bit about "stopping and anchoring" surely means heaving to or anchoring to (e.g.) wait for a tide. It doesn't mean anchoring for an overnight stay.
Tony Cross
Well-Known Member
I'm not a lawyer but I would have thought that a test of reasonableness would apply? If for example, you are on an innocent passage from Turkey to Italy through Greek waters and you anchored in a deserted bay in Greek waters for a night because the crew were exhausted that would I would think be seen as reasonable should the Coastguard turn up. This would be even more likely if your logbook was up to date and with your passage plan listed and the reason for the unscheduled stop. Of course, if you were swimming and/or sunbathing when the Cosatguard arrived your stop might not seem quite so reasonable?
sailaboutvic
Well-Known Member
That's the way I understand it too .
Read my first posting , I did mention entering the base line .
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jimbaerselman
Well-Known Member
I like the analysis of the UNCLOS situation above. Correspondence the CA has seen does talk about "a strict interpretation of sailing" in the context of UNCLOS (sailing in this case meaning passage making). In turn this seems to imply a view that non-essential pauses would not be acceptable .
So we've thrown back the Corinth Canal case - definitely inland waters - and our Swedish partner in this dialogue thinks [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barcelona_Convention_and_Statute_on_Freedom_of_Transit[/URL] may be relevant.
Well, there's no harm asking, eh?
So we've thrown back the Corinth Canal case - definitely inland waters - and our Swedish partner in this dialogue thinks [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barcelona_Convention_and_Statute_on_Freedom_of_Transit[/URL] may be relevant.
Well, there's no harm asking, eh?
Steve C Cronin
N/A
You are painting a picture of a Greece I do not know nor have known in the 45 years I have sailed there. Hellenic Coast Guard vessels visiting every quite anchorage and checking the paperwork of every vessel there? I think not. If that is the scenario they create then they can expect nothing but a mass exodus to occur within months. They havn't got the vessels to perform ANY sort of inspection regieme for a start.
Tony Cross
Well-Known Member
We were talking about innocent passage under UNCLOS, obviously if nobody spots that you've anchored then you're home free in any case. Notice that I said "should the Coastguard turn up", I wasn't for a moment suggesting that the Coastguard would actually start checking every anchorage.
sailaboutvic
Well-Known Member
Hey , but Steve are you really going to risk anchoring if there any chance that you may have a visit and get an 100% fine ? I know I wouldn't .
As regard if the coast guard are going to start checking bays , as I said so many time before , Greece is changing 10 years ago their didn't come out of their office let alone charge you on harbour walls , now it nothing to have to pay 10 or 15 euros , one have to wonder how long it will be before buoys are laid .
Te great Greece cruising area in time will no longer be and I think we can thank the mass of charter company for that .
As regard if the coast guard are going to start checking bays , as I said so many time before , Greece is changing 10 years ago their didn't come out of their office let alone charge you on harbour walls , now it nothing to have to pay 10 or 15 euros , one have to wonder how long it will be before buoys are laid .
Te great Greece cruising area in time will no longer be and I think we can thank the mass of charter company for that .
Steve C Cronin
N/A
"What's that then? Never heard of it, like 99% of others sailing in Greece."
Not MY view but that of a Greek national I spoke to earlier today.
Why don't they start checking the alcohol levels of boat operators*? Now THAT would be a REAL money earner!
* AND moped riders!
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nimbusgb
Well-Known Member
That's all fine and well when you are standing in a court, paying for solicitors etc. The big problem of course is having some certainty about it. I would be very reluctant to risk venturing in to Greek waters even on a genuine passage in say a 15 or 20m boat without having some well documented guidelines. Not so much fun if your boat is seized and held for a few months, possibly without you having access to it. It could end up in a write off of a boat even if you were found to be in the right!
Chris_Robb
Well-Known Member
Quite right - only a fool goes to court, especially a Greek one - see you in 5 years time to get your first hearing! Bit like the Court of Chancery in the UK - just don't go there.
Retired in Crete
Well-Known Member
As I said in the other thread:
I suspect it will be in exactly the same way as car tax is collected. You download a two part form from the net (saves the govt. the cost of the paper and print) and take it to any bank and pay. The bank keeps one part of the form, stamps the other half and returns it to you as a receipt. You will need to take ID and boat reg papers with you to confirm the length.
John
TPW
New Member
Actual info
This is a copy of a posting in a german sailing forum where a user posted the subsequent info which he recieved from his greek boatyard:
By the chance of this contact we would also like to inform you about the new sailing tax in Greece. A tax which we consider wrong and unfair as far as it concerns the boat owners which are not residents of our country. Without any doubts, this tax will bring the opposite results than expected because of the number of boats that will depart the country, if it finally comes in effect. For your information there are a lot of arguments coming from inside and outside the country which put pressure to the government to re consider. Until the time we are writing these lines nobody (not the port police office nor the tax office) has any information about it. There are a lot of difficulties to be settled in order non residents to be able to pay taxes in Greece (To do so you must have a Greek tax number -AFM-…..). However we estimate that it will take some time to settle all these issues therefore the new tax will not in come in effect very soon. For any new information we have about it, we will let you know.
This is a copy of a posting in a german sailing forum where a user posted the subsequent info which he recieved from his greek boatyard:
By the chance of this contact we would also like to inform you about the new sailing tax in Greece. A tax which we consider wrong and unfair as far as it concerns the boat owners which are not residents of our country. Without any doubts, this tax will bring the opposite results than expected because of the number of boats that will depart the country, if it finally comes in effect. For your information there are a lot of arguments coming from inside and outside the country which put pressure to the government to re consider. Until the time we are writing these lines nobody (not the port police office nor the tax office) has any information about it. There are a lot of difficulties to be settled in order non residents to be able to pay taxes in Greece (To do so you must have a Greek tax number -AFM-…..). However we estimate that it will take some time to settle all these issues therefore the new tax will not in come in effect very soon. For any new information we have about it, we will let you know.
jimbaerselman
Well-Known Member
It's called "head in the sand"