Goodbye red diesel!

[pagoda]

The customer. I was querying whether it really was not profitable to have a white diesel pump. Whether the operator collecting the profit was private or public sector is irrelevant.



Sweden and Finland have long northern latitude coastlines. How does it pan out there?

Marked diesel wasn't a problem two years ago in Sweden if you were leaving the country , restricted otherwise . Norway was pretty good value for marine diesel -then there are a LOT of boat users in Norway. Being on the water there is as popular as football is in the UK. A maritime tradition which they want to cultivate....

Why would anyone want to cultivate an "elitist up-market activity" in the UK? (tongue firmly in cheek)

People in Denmark/Sweden/Norway all still see the sea as something you aspire to take part in. Almost everybody has a boat of some kind. Unlike here, where many see it simply as something to watch , not get involved with. UK HSE and Safety "considerations" have something to do with this outlook. I was very aware of watching folk on beaches over the summer in Scotland - who was swimming etc. Almost nobody was in the sea without a wetsuit. That says a lot. (and the water temperature was not that bad!)

 

[NotBirdseye]

UK HSE and Safety "considerations" have something to do with this outlook. I was very aware of watching folk on beaches over the summer in Scotland - who was swimming etc. Almost nobody was in the sea without a wetsuit. That says a lot. (and the water temperature was not that bad!)

HSE & Safety "considerations" are not what is stopping me from getting involved. Availability of suitable tuition is. Unless you can do a residential course you practically have no hope... some rip off merchants try and charge you £500 for a few hours... I'd sooner get a boat and crash into someone a few times before I pay those prices.

 

[Daydream believer]

HSE & Safety "considerations" are not what is stopping me from getting involved. Availability of suitable tuition is. Unless you can do a residential course you practically have no hope... some rip off merchants try and charge you £500 for a few hours... I'd sooner get a boat and crash into someone a few times before I pay those prices.

With that attitude, I suspect that some would rather that you did not bother at all:ambivalence:

 

[dslittle]

I suppose that an enterprising owner of a small tanker lorry could arrange to visit marinas at agreed times & fill MOBOS straight from the lorry. I have seen this done in Ostend years ago when a number of boats wanted large quantities of fuel straight from the dockside.
Perhaps a marina operator would allow this for a small percentage.

Sometime ago we were sailing the East side of NI and Eire. On three occasions we were offered and accepted green diesel from a tanker that came to the marinas.
On the other hand, today we sailed all day and only had the engine on for 15 minutes in total so the fuel cost saving is not significant (thankfully as we no longer have access to red/green diesel...)

 

[NotBirdseye]

With that attitude, I suspect that some would rather that you did not bother at all:ambivalence:

Obviously I have no intention of crashing into anyone! . If I was landed with the choice of no tuition and just going, then I'd find a different hobby. The entire reason seeking out learning is to prevent aforementioned damage in the first place. HSE can be as onerous as it wants, if it wants me to undertake x amount of hours, have to renew my license every five years with a medical, take a drugs test every two years and completely x amount of training every year thereafter... I'd be all for that. (These are the same requirements foisted on LGV drivers).

As I said, what's preventing me from getting into sailing is not the HSE, it's not to be fair the cost, it's the availability of suitable training. If one of the facilities providing the RYA training were prepared to say, "Ah what the heck, we'll provide the training over daily basis, sure you can't get the RYA qualification that way, but you'll still learn something." That'd be great and I'd happily pay them an equivalent rate for the day. (£500 is a touch steep mind you).

(...CDYC appear to have restarted their training...)

 

[lw395]

Obviously I have no intention of crashing into anyone! . If I was landed with the choice of no tuition and just going, then I'd find a different hobby. The entire reason seeking out learning is to prevent aforementioned damage in the first place. HSE can be as onerous as it wants, if it wants me to undertake x amount of hours, have to renew my license every five years with a medical, take a drugs test every two years and completely x amount of training every year thereafter... I'd be all for that. (These are the same requirements foisted on LGV drivers).

As I said, what's preventing me from getting into sailing is not the HSE, it's not to be fair the cost, it's the availability of suitable training. If one of the facilities providing the RYA training were prepared to say, "Ah what the heck, we'll provide the training over daily basis, sure you can't get the RYA qualification that way, but you'll still learn something." That'd be great and I'd happily pay them an equivalent rate for the day. (£500 is a touch steep mind you).

(...CDYC appear to have restarted their training...)

There are loads of instructors who will do 'own boat tuition' for a sensible fee.
You can teach yourself a great deal from books.
You can do a charter holiday.
Talk to the smaller schools, they can be quite flexible, especially outside peak times.

 

[NotBirdseye]

There are loads of instructors who will do 'own boat tuition' for a sensible fee.
You can teach yourself a great deal from books.
You can do a charter holiday.
Talk to the smaller schools, they can be quite flexible, especially outside peak times.

I'll be more than happy to take them up on their offer when I have my own boat . As for the books I have (and I'm currently looking through!) Reeds Skipper's Handbook and practicing some of basic skills utilizing esail (it's not perfect but it helps with knowing what things are called, points of sail, those kinds of things) alas I wouldn't say I know how to sail just from memorizing them.
Working on finding said smaller schools . Thanks as always for your your advice (may not seem like it but I'm very grateful).

.... ups...sorry about the offtopic tangent...on an offtopic tangent.


IMO, red diesel isn't that big of a loss, you can refine your own biodiesel if you wish (cheaper and easier than you might think but granted will be more expensive than red diesel). If it means we're using less fossil fuels I'm all for it. Honestly surprised we don't have electric motors...

 

[maby]

.....

IMO, red diesel isn't that big of a loss, you can refine your own biodiesel if you wish (cheaper and easier than you might think but granted will be more expensive than red diesel). If it means we're using less fossil fuels I'm all for it. Honestly surprised we don't have electric motors...

After you've paid for a few fill-ups of diesel or petrol, you will no longer be surprised - boats are horribly fuel inefficient! We do have electric motors for outboards on small dinghies but, with current battery technology, sufficient capacity to move a medium size boat more than a few miles would weigh enough to sink it!

 

[JumbleDuck]

After you've paid for a few fill-ups of diesel or petrol, you will no longer be surprised - boats are horribly fuel inefficient! We do have electric motors for outboards on small dinghies but, with current battery technology, sufficient capacity to move a medium size boat more than a few miles would weigh enough to sink it!

This summer was a bad year for motoring for me. I refuelled three times in a month, at a total cost approaching the single Crinan Canal transit I did.

 

[Minchsailor]

This summer was a bad year for motoring for me. I refuelled three times in a month, at a total cost approaching the single Crinan Canal transit I did.

Agree. I've used 200 l, which for the miles covered is more than usual, but to be fair I have used the heater a lot.

 

[NotBirdseye]

After you've paid for a few fill-ups of diesel or petrol, you will no longer be surprised - boats are horribly fuel inefficient! We do have electric motors for outboards on small dinghies but, with current battery technology, sufficient capacity to move a medium size boat more than a few miles would weigh enough to sink it!

https://www.sailingtoday.co.uk/practical/electric-yachts/

The future is not as far away as you might think it seems. I'll be looking into this myself.

 

[maby]

https://www.sailingtoday.co.uk/practical/electric-yachts/

The future is not as far away as you might think it seems. I'll be looking into this myself.

Hmmm, though, as that article points out, few of us would save money by going down that route :

"For the owners of these converted yachts, it’s not really about saving money. As the EU-funded Hymar project revealed, there aren’t many cost savings involved with fitting a hybrid system, mainly because the kit remains relatively specialised, and still quite expensive. Instead, it’s about the joys of gentle, silent cruising with zero emissions, minimal ongoing maintenance and a large reserve of electrical energy for domestic loads."

The cost of hybrid systems is very high and most sailing boats don't use that much fuel, so you are going to take a long time to recoup the costs, let alone save money. Mobos do burn a lot of fuel, but they also require very high levels of thrust - beyond the technologies being discussed there.

 

[NotBirdseye]

The cost of hybrid systems is very high and most sailing boats don't use that much fuel, so you are going to take a long time to recoup the costs, let alone save money. Mobos do burn a lot of fuel, but they also require very high levels of thrust - beyond the technologies being discussed there.

Mobos yes but then, you don't go into motorboating for environmental reasons. Sailing however is pretty environmentally friendly can be completely sustainable (even with GRP) by replacing the diesel engines with electric engines and you wouldn't have as much cost with re-charging either (although fuel cells may very well be slightly more expensive).

These guys in Australia did it because it was cheaper than replacing the engine:

https://www.sail-worldcruising.com/news/212662/How-to-convert-a-sailboat-to-an-electric-vessel

Lets turn this thread from "Goodbye red diesel" (Regretful) to , "Good riddance diesel!" (Positive)!

 

[Bru]

I wish we could get rid of this idea that an additional tank costs only £500/1000/1500, or whatever..

You won't very rid of the fundamental idea because as i have already comprehensively covered elsewhere the costs of a fully compliant bunded fuel tank is relatively low (albeit not as low as the numbers you've pulled out of thin air) and certainly economically viable

Any location already selling red diesel will already have all the necessary compliance systems and permissions in place (excepting possibly planning permission which may or may not be required depending on the location)

Such "off the shelf" bunded tanks are common being widely used in construction, plant hire operations, commercial vehicle yards and, surprise surprise, marinas including the marina where we're based

So i wish people would stop inventing fallacious excuses for the UK marine industry failing to even begin to implement solutions to this problem despite being given ample time to do so

 

[Momac]

I contacted a local marina today and and they said they don't yet know of any date by which they are required to make any changes . They are awaiting feedback from the latest consultations.

Rather like brexit - it may take a while longer than anyone imagined.