Going up the mast of a bilge-keeled Westerly Falcon, whilst she's ashore?

[Landfall]

What sort of mast would enable a fall to be into the water ?

 

[dunedin]

Because I don't think it is safe. I spent too long in life picking up dead people who have fallen less than 10 meters onto hard stuff. Falling into water from that height gives you a chance, assuming you don't impale yourself on a stanchion on your down - you can tell I am great fun at at parties.

Different people have different appetite for risk.

Unless running up the mainsail whilst underway and heeling, like an Open 60 skipper, if anybody fell from the mast they aren’t going to land on water, even if afloat. It won’t end well. Making sure nobody is going to fall (or get stuck aloft) is the absolute priority in either case.
With a very secure boat ashore to my mind it has no differ to the risk assessment.

Boats with limited / insecure props when ashore - or going up a mast on a very small boat, whether ashore or afloat - are a different matter

 

[[70521]]

Thanks.

Did you pick up any dead people, who had fallen less than ten metres, who had been attached to two separate harnesses, by two separate halyards, which had all been separately 'bounce' tested before leaving the deck?

Also, can you explain the physics of how I could fall in the water, or on to the ground, when I'd been working just centimetres from the masthead, and directly astern of it? I must admit that my assumption is that I would fall vertically, until I hit the boom: this would be the same afloat or ashore.

Yup, rock climbers are usually kitted up better than sailors.

The human body bounces quite well if dropped from a height. don't try this at home.

But as I said, I am great fun at parties and we all have our own risk assessment.

 

[NealB]

What sort of mast would enable a fall to be into the water ?

Hi Landfall ........ a very bent one, maybe?

 

[steveeasy]

I am afraid it is a bit elf'n'safety. The yards here mostly do not prohibit going up the mast when ashore, either by the local professional riggers or by owners. However there is a creeping elf'n'safety lunacy coming in: it is easier for boatyards to prohibit EVERYTHING than risk being sued.

One local yard published a set of terms'n'conditions that effectively said that in order to get on deck or in the cockpit of your own boat once they had lifted it out of the water and put it ashore on their own hired steel cradle, you would have to have scaffolding erected giving a walkway and 1 metre high guardrail all around the deck and cockpit. Of course the boats were packed together far too closely for that to be done, even if any owner had paid for the hire of the scaffolding for months. Funnily enough they have never tried to enforce that rule. But if you fall of and break your leg or die they can point to your failure to comply with the terms'n'conditions that you were deemed to have accepted when you asked them, for a tiny payment of a couple of thousand, to store your boat ashore that winter.....

It is far safer to go up a mast on a boat securely and stably ashore than on a mooring with wash from passing boats or even worse at sea. In he past have done all three.

Sorry but i disagree. Firstly is would be utter madness to go up the mast on a boat that is shored up. One sat in a cradle is reliant on the cradle being very stable and strong. A boat in the water is as safe as can be. it might move a bit but its not going to fall over. As long as you have two anchor points at all times far safer in the water, but not sat in mud.
Steveeasy

 

[NealB]

Sorry but i disagree. Firstly is would be utter madness to go up the mast on a boat that is shored up. One sat in a cradle is reliant on the cradle being very stable and strong. A boat in the water is as safe as can be. it might move a bit but its not going to fall over. As long as you have two anchor points at all times far safer in the water, but not sat in mud.
Steveeasy

You think there's a measurable risk of a bilge keeled Weterly Falcon being 'capsized' by having someone hauled to the masthead?

My risk assessment assumed I was at greater risk of being hit by a Putin nuclear attack.

 

[Refueler]

Sorry but i disagree. Firstly is would be utter madness to go up the mast on a boat that is shored up. One sat in a cradle is reliant on the cradle being very stable and strong. A boat in the water is as safe as can be. it might move a bit but its not going to fall over. As long as you have two anchor points at all times far safer in the water, but not sat in mud.
Steveeasy

The thread is a Bilge Keeler of significant weight and stability - not a fin keeler in a yard cradle.

 

[Refueler]

Thanks.

Did you pick up any dead people, who had fallen less than ten metres, who had been attached to two separate harnesses, by two separate halyards, which had all been separately 'bounce' tested before leaving the deck?

Also, can you explain the physics of how I could fall in the water, or on to the ground, when I'd been working just centimetres from the masthead, and directly astern of it? I must admit that my assumption is that I would fall vertically, until I hit the boom: this would be the same afloat or ashore.

I agree generally with you .............

But I would suggest that its likely windage etc. would have boat heeling a bit if afloat ... but still I would expect you to hit somewhere on the boat, it would need quite an angle to lead to water ..

 

[NealB]

The human body bounces quite well if dropped from a height. don't try this at home.

Sorry, but I'm still trying to quantify the risks that I took this morning (and have take many times over the last forty years or more).

The 'bounce-ability' of the human body is beyond my sphere of specialism (I can feel a google coming on).

So I am interested: do you think there's a realistic risk that I could have fallen from the masthead, hit the boom (on the boat's centreline), and bounced sideways over the guardrails (beam is over 12 feet, just abaft the mast)?

 

[steveeasy]

You think there's a measurable risk of a bilge keeled Weterly Falcon being 'capsized' by having someone hauled to the masthead?

My risk assessment assumed I was at greater risk of being hit by a Putin nuclear attack.

I thought you were on the hard.

The thread is a Bilge Keeler of significant weight and stability - not a fin keeler in a yard cradle.

Yes I know that. my post referred to several posts not just the OPs initial post. As for a measurable risk of being capsized, Hardly possible given the OP was on the hard. In my limited time with boats Ive seen lots of people go up masts while on the water. never seen anyone do so on the hard. Of course its up to the individual to decide if he is safe or not. the Friend made a good call in my opinion.

When a boat is out the water you add another risk. that being the stability of the boat. its not about falling in the water, or landing on the boom, its about the stability of the boat and the risk of it moving while your 50ft of the ground. Good practice is to get a boat in the water then go up the mast.

Steveeasy

 

[[70521]]

Sorry, but I'm still trying to quantify the risks that I took this morning (and have take many times over the last forty years or more).

The 'bounce-ability' of the human body is beyond my sphere of specialism (I can feel a google coming on).

So I am interested: do you think there's a realistic risk that I could have fallen from the masthead, hit the boom (on the boat's centreline), and bounced sideways over the guardrails (beam is over 12 feet, just abaft the mast)?

As I said we all have our own 'risk profile'. You are happy with the risk, your pal and I are not and prefered not to look after you up the mast. Really not an issue, enjoy a beer and get on the water.

 

[NealB]

As I said we all have our own 'risk profile'. You are happy with the risk, your pal and I are not and prefered not to look after you up the mast. Really not an issue, enjoy a beer and get on the water.

Haha .... I'm teetotal.

Beer is far too dangerous, and unhealthy, for me.

 

[NealB]

I thought you were on the hard.

Yes I know that. my post referred to several posts not just the OPs initial post. As for a measurable risk of being capsized, Hardly possible given the OP was on the hard. In my limited time with boats Ive seen lots of people go up masts while on the water. never seen anyone do so on the hard. Of course its up to the individual to decide if he is safe or not. the Friend made a good call in my opinion.

When a boat is out the water you add another risk. that being the stability of the boat. its not about falling in the water, or landing on the boom, its about the stability of the boat and the risk of it moving while your 50ft of the ground. Good practice is to get a boat in the water then go up the mast.

Steveeasy

I've been sailing boats, and hanging around boat yards, and clubs, for well over 45 years.

I've seen many people up boat masts when ashore.

My friend's 'call' was that the risk of the boat being 'toppled' was very real. To me that shows a very profound lack of even the most basic knowledge of physics (and, just in case you missed it: remember, she's a biggish bilge keeler, and my friend knows that).

I spoke to the very experienced yard owner this morning about my friend's fears.

He laughed long and hard, then suggested that we could tie a halyard to the back of his seriously big tractor, and drive away at 90 degrees to our centreline.

His guess was that:

a) the mast would break

b) the halyard would break

c) the back of his tractor would rise in the air.

"What about the chances of the boat being pulled over?" I asked. "Absolutely f..k all" was his honest, mathematical, assessment.

He had no objections at all to me going up my own mast.

I can see all sorts of risks associated with me going up my mast, but the risk of me 'toppling' my boat is as near f--k all as anything can be.

 

[steveeasy]

Sorry, but I'm still trying to quantify the risks that I took this morning (and have take many times over the last forty years or more).

The 'bounce-ability' of the human body is beyond my sphere of specialism (I can feel a google coming on).

So I am interested: do you think there's a realistic risk that I could have fallen from the masthead, hit the boom (on the boat's centreline), and bounced sideways over the guardrails (beam is over 12 feet, just abaft the mast)?

The body can suffer catastrophic internal injuries falling less than 3 mtrs in a harness. Dont worry about hitting the boom or bouncing off the cabin top. anyway its your call. Im sure many go up on the hard.

I've been sailing boats, and hanging around boat yards, and clubs, for well over 45 years.

I've seen many people up boat masts when ashore.

My friend's 'call' was that the risk of the boat being 'toppled' was very real. To me that shows a very profound lack of even the most basic knowledge of physics (and, just in case you missed it: remember, she's a biggish bilge keeler).

I spoke to the very experienced yard owner this morning about my friend's fears.

He laughed long and hard, then suggested that we could tie a halyard to the back of his seriously big tractor, and drive away at 90 degrees to our centreline.

His guess was that:

a) the mast would break

b) the halyard would break

c) the back of his tractor would rise in the air.

"What about the chances of the boat being pulled over?" I asked. "Absolutely f..k all" was his honest, mathematical, assessment.

He had no objections at all to me going up my own mast.

As I said before, I responded to another post,

His Guess. !!. well Im not so sure that mast would break. why would it ?. im sure someone could calculate the physics involved in that one.

Steveeasy

 

[penberth3]

........My friend's 'call' was that the risk of the boat being 'toppled' was very real. To me that shows a very profound lack of even the most basic knowledge of physics (and, just in case you missed it: remember, she's a biggish bilge keeler, and my friend knows that).

I can see all sorts of risks associated with me going up my mast, but the risk of me 'toppling' my boat is as near f--k all as anything can be.

You might not agree with your friend, but you shouldn't dismiss his concerns in the way you are doing. Your friend was right to consider the risk of overturning. That's what risk assessment is all about.

 

[geem]

I can't believe the fear some people have. Do you guys never go to sea? It's very easy to keep safe up a mast with the correct precautions. No way on earth that boat could fall over

 

[steveeasy]

Why would the mast break. If the boat is so heavy, then it will have a big mast designed to take huge loads. I would think if it was pulled by your friends huge tractor the boat would simply topple over. those Keels would do little to prevent it. Of course I might be completely wrong but I am happy with my call. Of course I tend to think two of you swinging around on the top of your mast would not topple the boat and your call was fine. my post was about shored up boats and cradles.

Steveeasy

 

[steveeasy]

I can't believe the fear some people have. Do you guys never go to sea? It's very easy to keep safe up a mast with the correct precautions. No way on earth that boat could fall over

How do you know ?. Ok, I work everyday off the ground. im trained in Arial rescue and working at heights. what has going to sea got to do with it. There was of course the recent sad story of the couple who sent their 12 yr old daughter up the mast. they knew what they were doing, been doing it all their lives. Dont need to tell the rest of the story. Never said it was unsafe. I said you could pull the boat over with a big tractor. whos to say it would break the mast.
Steveeasy

 

[NealB]

Why would the mast break. If the boat is so heavy, then it will have a big mast designed to take huge loads. I would think if it was pulled by your friends huge tractor the boat would simply topple over. those Keels would do little to prevent it. Of course I might be completely wrong but I am happy with my call. Of course I tend to think two of you swinging around on the top of your mast would not topple the boat and your call was fine. my post was about shored up boats and cradles.

Steveeasy

Maybe he thought a cap shroud, or shroud fitting, could fail, leading to mast breakage (but I'm not sure he was taking it too seriously!).

I think a tractor trying to topple a biggish bilge keeler ashore, could make an interesting youtube vid (but not my bilge keeler, please!).

Hey ....... and now you mention it, two of us "swinging around", at the top of my mast, could also be fun to watch.

 

[geem]

How do you know ?. Ok, I work everyday off the ground. im trained in Arial rescue and working at heights. what has going to sea got to do with it. There was of course the recent sad story of the couple who sent their 12 yr old daughter up the mast. they knew what they were doing, been doing it all their lives. Dont need to tell the rest of the story. Never said it was unsafe. I said you could pull the boat over with a big tractor. whos to say it would break the mast.
Steveeasy

I climb my mast regularly to do rig inspections. Normally before and after a long crossing. Whether you do it afloat or in a yard on a well supported boat makes no difference. Any fall will likely kill you. So, you use two means of connection to the mast. I use an ascender on a spare halyard connected to my harness as the back up. So what risk have I not considered when working at height?