Laser310
Well-Known Member
that pogo polar is from VPP.., and the computer doesn't know fear
Going downwind.
- Thread starter Allan
- Start date
that pogo polar is from VPP.., and the computer doesn't know fear
John_Silver
Well-Known Member
Think you're right @Laser310 about the upwind performance of the two Firsts. Just been trawling the YW app archive. Which has reviews of the First 30, First 36 and Pogo RC that provide pen pictures of their performance profiles. Pogo looks pretty sharp upwind - but she is a water ballasted race boat! Don't know where the JPK's would sit relative to either.
First 30 (from YW Oct 2025)
The First 36 (from YW March 2023)
The Pogo RC (from YW July 2025)
First 30 (from YW Oct 2025)
The First 36 (from YW March 2023)
The Pogo RC (from YW July 2025)
Chiara’s slave
Well-Known Member
I know a number of quite brave sailors. My pockets are not deep enough to let them sail my boat. I think probably the computer falls into that category.
flaming
Well-Known Member
Just FYI that Pogo is somewhat different to the type of Pgogs normally referred to, i.e the cruising line, the 1250 etc.
John_Silver
Well-Known Member
Be interesting to see if the concept trickles down…..Although perhaps the performance is too weight sensitive to apply to a cruiser/racer?
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flaming
Well-Known Member
I think this is the trickle down, the Pogo RC and the JPK1050 both being rather similar in concept to a modern class 40.
It is, in my opinion, a worrying thing for the D/H scene though that such high performance and expensive boats come onto the scene and start taking all the pots....
Chiara’s slave
Well-Known Member
Them’s the breaks, in yacht racing. Even in the XOD fleet you can buy success.
John_Silver
Well-Known Member
Regular....
and RC flavoured Pogos. In the shed at Sainte Marine, back in July. To illustrate your point about the RC's 'somewhat different' hull shape.
oldbloke
Well-Known Member
Presumably, hopefully, the IRC rating office will be sharpening it's pencils and having a think
Ed Sned
Member
For what it's worth, below are the polars produced by the ORC VPP for my 36ft cruising trimaran. The colours relate to different sails: Jib, a very flat AWA40 Code0/J0, screecher, A3 kite. This combined plot gets a bit jumbled and there are a couple or errant lines which don't exist on the plots for the individual wind strengths.
To be clear, we're a different animal from Chiara though - we're 5,200kg on the hook with berths for 6-7, watermaker, heating etc and the boat has been across the Atlantic; hence we don't see the same top speeds. However, we're not a bad cruising boat as it's very easy to sit at 10-13 knts for long periods of time with little effort and everything remaining upright on the table down below.
In our experience, the speeds indicated by the VPP are a bit optimistic largely as they assume pretty flat water, and perfectly trimmed sails in like-new condition. They're not a million miles off though. We've seen sustained 15knts with surfs up to 18 on a broad reach in 20-22knts TWS.
I mostly race solo. The autopilot (NKE +Jefa drive) handles everything I throw at it remarkably well and I rarely have any concerns from taking naps upwind, although I'm obviously more careful reaching. My fear in the bigger winds is not capsizing, or even tripping over the leeward float bow (at >5t, we're no lightweight), but the enormous loads that build up in the rig. That colossal righting moment means you quickly find any undersized shackles, usually with very expensive consequences. Hence the biggest fear when pushing hard in big winds is sail damage and/or rigging failure.
To be clear, we're a different animal from Chiara though - we're 5,200kg on the hook with berths for 6-7, watermaker, heating etc and the boat has been across the Atlantic; hence we don't see the same top speeds. However, we're not a bad cruising boat as it's very easy to sit at 10-13 knts for long periods of time with little effort and everything remaining upright on the table down below.
In our experience, the speeds indicated by the VPP are a bit optimistic largely as they assume pretty flat water, and perfectly trimmed sails in like-new condition. They're not a million miles off though. We've seen sustained 15knts with surfs up to 18 on a broad reach in 20-22knts TWS.
I mostly race solo. The autopilot (NKE +Jefa drive) handles everything I throw at it remarkably well and I rarely have any concerns from taking naps upwind, although I'm obviously more careful reaching. My fear in the bigger winds is not capsizing, or even tripping over the leeward float bow (at >5t, we're no lightweight), but the enormous loads that build up in the rig. That colossal righting moment means you quickly find any undersized shackles, usually with very expensive consequences. Hence the biggest fear when pushing hard in big winds is sail damage and/or rigging failure.
Chiara’s slave
Well-Known Member
Though our lines are a little quicker than that, we are only 40% of your displacement, and maybe 2/3 of your sail area, what we’ve arrived an angle wise is almost exactly the same. Our max VMG downwind is with the apparent wind at about 100, true wind 140-150, Vmax at 100 true, apparent is just tight enough to need a bit of inhaul on the code 0. Max windward VMG is at 40 true, 28 apparent, in all sailable wind. I think the pogo numbers don’t quite add up there.
flaming
Well-Known Member
Hopefully.
The main issue though is that compared to the previous generation of shorthanded offshore boats, the JPK1010/1030 the Sunfast 3200/3300, the J99 etc, they are so much faster that they're not really in the same race. Only on the results sheet are they really racing each other. So no matter how good the ratings are at comparing their speed, the game has moved on.
capnsensible
Well-Known Member
Somewhere between Galapagos and French Polynesia. Half a main snd poled out storm jib. Bivaria 44. Awesome!!!!
Chiara’s slave
Well-Known Member
My kind of downwind
westernman
Well-Known Member
Cool!
Chiara’s slave
Well-Known Member
Al Wood is an amazing sailor. A lesson to us all in sailing the angles. That’s about 140 true, I should think.
John_Silver
Well-Known Member
Jean-Pierre Kelbert (JPK) on the design of the JPK 1050 and winning the Fastnet (in English). “I like downwind. When you get….planing before the others.”
geem
Well-Known Member
We just arrived in Mindelo after a 800nm passage from the Canaries. I was thinking about downwind sailing as that is all we did. A nice easy passage with no more than 25kts T in a squall. Generally it was 12/17kts with a few hours of 8/9kts. We never engined as boat speed was reasonable. We averaged 6.5kts including the low wind periods
It confirmed that in a down wind set up, we reef at 20/21kts T. Our mainsail is 400sqft. The genoa is 700sqft and the jib is 300sqft. We set all 3 sails down wind giving us1400sqft of sail. In 21kts T we are doing 8kts. Our hull speed is 8.2kts so we don't need to go faster. We certainly are not going to plane so if we have more wind than 20/21kts we reef. We didn't even get the spinnaker out on this leg as we needed to slow down to arrive in Mindelo in daylight. That slowing down coincided with the lighter winds in the trip. A super easy and comfortable passage.
Bajansailor
Well-Known Member
@capnsensible that is an impressive angle of roll in your photo when I level up the horizon - was she rolling both ways as much as this, or was this a 'one off' roll? 
In a previous life 30 years ago I crossed the Atlantic from Tenerife to Antigua on a 54' yawl - we tacked (gybed?) downwind the whole way on 140 apparent and although we sailed a greater distance, we only took 18 days, with a few 200 mile days between noon positions.
And with the wind on the quarter she was very steady, with very little rolling.
We overhauled a few ARC boats who were sailing dead downwind, with mainsail and genoa poled out to windward, and they were all rolling quite noticeably.
In a previous life 30 years ago I crossed the Atlantic from Tenerife to Antigua on a 54' yawl - we tacked (gybed?) downwind the whole way on 140 apparent and although we sailed a greater distance, we only took 18 days, with a few 200 mile days between noon positions.
And with the wind on the quarter she was very steady, with very little rolling.
We overhauled a few ARC boats who were sailing dead downwind, with mainsail and genoa poled out to windward, and they were all rolling quite noticeably.