GMDSS Long Range Cert

[Uisteach]

Does anyone have or know where I could find a list of training centres that run GMDSS Long Range Cert courses (UK)? The RYA site doesn't list them and Google only comes up with a centre in Southampton. Any ideas?

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[snowleopard]

the rya does keep a list - phone them.

p.s. it's a thrill packed 4 days, get a prescription for valium in advance.

 

[Talbot]

These are very poorly provided, however there is a way to find out. RYA should tell you the contact ,and then you have to phone and wait forever for them to answer - I gave up in the end.

I complained to the correspondence learning people about lack of coverage of this certificate, at SBS, but dont expect that will help much

It is also worth going the <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.rsgb.org/foundation/>Radio Ham</A> route cause it increases the number of people you can talk to

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[Cheeky Girl]

Try this web site http:// [url]http://www.amerc.ac.uk/location.html [/url]

Someone suggested this to me or any of the schools offering the Fast Track YM courses will usually be running them

Graham

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[Uisteach]

Thanks, I've thought about the Amateur Radio Licence as an option. There's a correspodence course for the advanced level certificate - not sure though if you have to do the foundation level first.

Surfing this on the web beginning to see that there are options outside the "marine" industry. Esp. in terms of radio equipment. Like

http://www.radioworld.co.uk

And Happilyoverforty, did check that site, but none of the colleges linked actually listed any courses on radio operation.

Thanks all

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[Sea Devil]

Hi,

Just wanted to say that 90% of the folks out there operating SSB (not Ham) do not have operators licences - in the USA you just fill in a form and get it -

If I understand the law correctly once you are out of UK waters you can operate without a UK operators licence - your set should be licenced but that comes with vhf, radar, iperb etc...

The course is very expensive and does not teach you how to operate the set or what frequencies the items that interest and are used by yachtsment are on - working the set and basic princibles can be shown to you in a couple of hours by anyone you meet with an ssb. I really would not wast my time or money on an out of date course that is not relevent or required once you are out of UK waters.

The Ham licence may well be worth getting - very useful - but not essential unless you want to chat to Ham nets.

regards
Michael

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[Ships_Cat]

<<<once you are out of UK waters you can operate without a UK operators licence>>>

Quite a bit of misinformation in your post but the above is of most threat.

If you are a UK flagged (or any other flagged) vessel and enter a foreign territory and operate the radio without the operator's certificate required by your flag state then the radio is likely to be confiscated and other action possibly taken against the vessel.

On the high seas, your own flag may prosecute you, but the likelihood of that happening is not great as if you are far from your flag's territory it is difficult for them to detect, unless a complaint is laid by another party - that is always a possibility and many I know would do so if they detected illegal operation.

I hope no one takes any notice of the rest of your post as it encourages illegal activities and makes misleading claims in its attempt to do that. You are obviously a rank novice.

John

<hr width=100% size=1>I am the cat but I am only 6.

 

[Sea Devil]

John hi,

My information about UK boats operating SSBs without an operators licence outside of UK waters is what someone from the licensing board stated in a post a while ago.

Not withstanding all that, which is totally academic, because none of the authorities monitor hf for illeagal (operator) transmissions - impossible anyway... I suspect if you abuse the system then you may have a problem but that's fair enough - When Portishead Radio was working I spoke to them 2 or 3 times a week for many years and never once did they ask if I had an operators licence. Nor the American stations.

The reality of SSB - HF is that it is out dated and useless except for a few parts of the world. Merchant ships are no longer requrired to monitor the distress frequencies nor do any repeat, any rescue operations - Merchant ships use sat telephones.

Having said that it is one of the most useful bits of kit for blue water sailors. It gets you into the nets and keeps you in touch with others. It has important safety implications yacht to yacht and can be useful in search and rescue once communications have been established. It also gets you inexpesivly into the world of email at sea.

Your right I have a lot to learn but all I said in my previous post is still true of the experience I have had so far and my opinion of the necessity to have an irrelevent orperators certificate still stands.

All only my opinion of course

regards

Michael

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[Ships_Cat]

I think your views on the uselessness of SSB would be regarded with amazement by those commercial vessels all around the world that carry HF and/or MF in order to meet GMDSS equipment requirements in Sea Areas A2, A3 and A4.

Your other claims are similarly spurious so not worth arguing with you about - so I won't.

John



<hr width=100% size=1>I am the cat but I am only 6.

 

[snowleopard]

<The course... not teach you how to operate the set >

may depend on who you go to for the course. i went to a radio school at universal marina on the hamble. they had a set-up for teaching and you were expected to learn how to operate that kit. their ssb set was an icom 710 which fortunately was the same as mine and they did go through the procedure for tuning channels which is the trickiest part of working that set.

on the other hand their vhf set was an old navico and they didn't teach us to operate it, assuming that a vhf set was familiar to everybody. unfortunately the backlighting control was unfamiliar to me and the examiner said it would have been an automatic fail 'until recently'.

worst thing about the course was the hour spent every day going through a mayday acknowledgement exercise with dummy microphones.

the exam consisted of repeating the exercise followed by having to demonstrate use of the controls on each piece of kit (ssb, vhf, dsc, navtex & sat-c), so yes, you had to learn all the buttons!

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[Sea Devil]

I think that's my point really - I've got an Icom 710 - my 3rd Icom SSB and it's brilliant. Takes a little time to understand a few of the buttons and how to tune frequencies but most inter yacht chat is on single frequencies I just keeep them in the memory - use the ITC numbers infrequently.

The whole course for HF is really an anachorism in this day and age of sat communications - just another source of tax revenue I suspect. I am pretty sure the yanks give the operators certificate with an application form but I may be wrong.
regards
Michael

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[Sea Devil]

John,

of course deep water merchant ships carry SSB and are obliged to. They are no longer required to monitor the distress frequency or to have an automatic alarm on the bridge set. In fact I think Icom have stopped selling the marine sets with the alarm button as they do not any longer have a function.

I am not quite sure when you were last blue water sailing and using your SSB but I assure you that in the real world it is as I have stated - Nobody regulaly monitors 2182 or any of the other emergency frequencies. Most coast radio stations in Europe and US waters have now closed down (except Radio Monacco and I think there is one ma bell stations still available in the states) The reason for this is that most merchant ships carry sat telephones.

I am a great fan of SSB and consider it one of the most vital add ons to blue water cruising but you have to know it's limitations or when you have a problem you will reach for the wrong mike!
regards
Michael

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[Sea Devil]

Just to add to my last post - the mayday is crazy- nobody is going to be listening!

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[Ships_Cat]

You may be interested in the UK legislation for commercial vessels. It echoes that of GMDSS and is similar for all nations except that some nations allow the non carriage of ssb if INMARSAT C is carried.

A copy of the relevant part of the UK Merchant Shipping (Radio Installations) Regulations 1998 is at http://www.seamanship.co.uk/login/SIs/16 Radio and Navigational Equipment/1998 2070c.htm. They will also be in full on <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.legislation.hmso.gov.uk>http://www.legislation.hmso.gov.uk</A>.

You will see there the requirements for commercial vessels to carry MF/HF but you seem to be saying that no one will be listening for them. So I wonder what the point of the legislation is?

You will also see that a MF DSC watch has to be maintained by vessels carrying ssb and those radios obviously have to be capable of telephony. It may be that you are getting confused with the effect on pleasure vessels in the UK. Sea Areas A1 and A2 are declared by the nation whose territory they are in - in the case of the UK my understanding is that those waters were previously declared A2 with MF watch being maintained, but subsequently were declared A1 with VHF DSC to be maintained instead. As you probably know, MF range is, reliably, short.

GMDSS requires internationally roaming ships to be fitted so that they can maintain a safety watch and make distress calls anywhere including non declared A1, A2 and A3 (and A4, polar, as well of course but doesn't affect many) Sea Areas. You will find that almost the whole world has NOT declared Sea Areas A1 and A2 for VHF DSC and a MF as well as an HF watch is kept, but not neccesarily from every country's waters as there is obviously propagation assistance making that uneccesary. Sea Areas A3 (and A4) are, of course not declared but the nature of MF/HF propagation means that a universal watch is kept. For example, to the best of my knowledge the whole of the Pacific is covered, and as far as I know also the rest of the world. A cruising yacht fitted with SSB, especially DSC (such as the Icom IC-M802) is covered as an internationally roaming vessel.

As I can at times work even other mobile stations around the other side of the world (including in the UK) from my own boat here in NZ the wide coverage of any HF shore station is obvious.

It may be that MF/HF watches will increasingly be limited to DSC (although that is not widely so now) but that is just following the VHF route and I do not think many say, as I assume on the basis of your comments relating to MF/HF that you would, that VHF is now useless because in some (very few) parts of the world a VHF telephony watch is no longer being held. When the mandatory requirement for ships to monitor CH16 shortly comes into effect, I assume that you will then be saying that there is no need to carry VHF because the telphony safety channel is no longer watched by ships.

In the case of oceanic repositioning of vessels that normally do not operate in Sea Areas requiring SSB (ie Sea Area A1) it is a general requirement that they be fitted with SSB for the repositioning. However, I have had the situation where we have repositioned large harbour tugs along relatively safe equatorial oceanic routes where the flag (a small relatively "easy" one) has allowed the carraige of satphone eg Iridium instead as long as a non serialised 406 EPIRB was also fitted for the voyage.

Hope that adds some clarity. I personally think you are not responsible in your posts advocating illegal operation in the maritime service and that you seriously mislead others when you claim that there is no MF/HF watch. I do not advocate that cruising vessels should necessarily carry SSB, but do suggest, as another has, that a 406 EPIRB be carried (under GMDSS a 406 EPIRB is mandatory for all Sea Areas as obviously it provides a watch for all A!, A2, A3 and A4).

However, in the end, I am only a cat, I obviously don't know what I am talking about. But perhaps the foregoing will help others make an informed decision regarding their safety and legal operation of their vessel rather than one based on loose words and fostering illegal operation.

John

<hr width=100% size=1>I am the cat but I am only 6.

 

[Ships_Cat]

<<<Icom have stopped selling the marine sets with the alarm button as they do not any longer have a function>>>

Errrr, what about tha IC-M802. In fact, I believe that you will find that you can only buy Icom marine SSB tranceivers that do have the alarm button. And just in case someone mentions it, while many regard the IC-706 as a "marine" transceiver it is, of course not and it is illegal to use it in the maritime service.

I know the M802 may not be available in the UK, but that is only a local regulatory matter which one assume will soon be ended.

Enough of my correcting your grabbing at straws, I trust that others have seen the misguidence of your recommendations and I need say no more (and won't /forums/images/icons/smile.gif).

John

<hr width=100% size=1>I am the cat but I am only 6.

 

[Sea Devil]

John hi,

Thank you for the very in depth response.

Where does it say that all ships with SSB must keep a listening watch on 2182?

Which countries Coast Guard are obliged to keep a listening 2182?

Which of the above also keep listening watch on 4,6,8 12 mgz emergency frequencies?

I have had to put out a pan pan medico (injured crew) and a pan pan on SSB (Another yacht wrecked on coral reef during a storm) - Once in the Caribbean and once off the Australian coast -

Absoultly zero response from any service what so ever on 2182. there were many stations in range.

The first problem was solved by David Jones calling the US coastguard service in Florida (I then established SSB link with a warship) and the other occaision another yacht used his irridium phone to contact Aussie CC.

I repeat: Are all ships with SSB required to keep a listening watch on 2182 or is it phrased in a way to allow discretion?

Which of the worlds Coast Guard Services keep a 24 hour listening watch on 2182.

There is an old british custom which implies that if you think the law is stupid then you may stand up and say so... Has that changed?

I may well be wrong and SSB is the first line of rescue and safety - really? I think an iperb is much more useful except in out of the way or very poor places.

All this is of course opinion but... why not

regards

Michael

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www.michaelbriant.com/sailing

 

[Ships_Cat]

So now you are just talking about 2182. You are decades behind the times.

As you mention not having any luck in Australia, let me just use that as an example (I am in NZ) as I am not about to try to outline the maritime radio services of every nation. AMSA maintain a DSC watch on HF from two stations (basically one serving west and the other east). All the States maintain a listening watch on 4125, 6215 and 8291 kHz. If you were on the East coast of Australia when you made your Urgency call then it is possible that it would also be heard in NZ and any of a number of Pacific nations propagation allowing, providing the best frequency was selected. The foregoing regarding the DSC watch is within the last few years, prior to that AMSA also maintained a telephony watch but not a DSC one.

I do not recall when a 2182 watch was discontinued in Australia (perhaps only a few years ago though) but if a watch was held and you were not heard, then maybe there is an inefficiency with your station - that is more common than not with yacht stations.

I trust you know the propagation disadvantages of 2182, especially during the day it is basically ineffectual from a low powered yacht station and even so from larger ship stations (and range is also limited at night). While MF (2182) watches are maintained in some countries GMDSS only mentions it for Sea Area A2 (if I recall correctly) and in most western nations that has been substituted (out to 50-60 miles anyway) by VHF, either DSC or telephony. In almost all instances it is best to call on a higher frequency, unless a DSC set is carried in which case MF is also satisfactory for the case of any nearby shipping, that being dependant upon time of day and distance to the called station. Calling on a higher frequency has always been the best advice unless you know that you are within 100-150 miles maximum to a coast station. I have heard distress/urgency calls from both aircraft (once only, a ditching aircraft in North West Pacific) and ship stations on HF from over 6,000 miles away.

As an example of the operational demise of 2182 using here in NZ as an example, where its operational use was downgraded 20 - 30 years ago. While a 2182 watch is still maintained in NZ that is mainly just a matter of "just in case" as far as I can see because the receiving station is probably 80 - 90 miles from the nearest sea and obviously much further from most (it is located near Taupo, North Island if you are interested - also the Australian AMSA DSC stations are even further inland). Many years ago, don't recall but >20 years the MF/HF coast stations here were disestablished and the single station aforementioned established. This was effectively the end of operational use of 2182 in NZ - if one has a communication or are distressed you should choose a calling frequency from 4125, 6215, etc. NZ Notices to Mariners includes propagation forecasts every so often for upcoming months out to a range of 1,000 nm.

Just as for VHF, I am sure that there will be a gradual change to DSC (hence Icom's IC-M802) and perhaps more so than for VHF as many nations, as I understand it, are unlikely to declare any Sea Area A1 as VHF DSC due to the extensiveness of their coastlines and other reasons. When that is the case then older MF/HF transceivers will have difficulties similar to those that non DSC VHF transceivers will shortly have in the UK.

It has been claimed that USCG do not maintain MF/HF listening watches, however that is incorrect - they publish at least an HF Distress and Safety Watchkeeping Schedule, the most recent I have seen is as recent as Feb 2004

Note that I am not saying HF is fail safe, it cannot be regardless of how many nations maintain a safety watch, because of propagation. Just responding to the claim that no one listens any more.

Ships are not required to listen on 2182 and the use of them doing so has been long gone as its reliable range in daytime is hardly much more than that of a good VHF station, but if they are required to carry MF/HF equipment they are required to maintain a MF (and often HF too) DSC listening watch.

John

<hr width=100% size=1>I am the cat but I am only 6.

 

[Sea Devil]

John hi,

Many thanks for the post - I am told I have a very good signal - regulaly communicate over long distances... I was in Lady Musgrave when a couple of yachts went on the reef in a storm... Before that 200 miles N of Colombia and I had a seriously injured crew who needed medical attention - of course after 2182 I tried all the emergeny frequencies 4,6,8,12 etc etc In the end got onto the weather net and spoke to David Jones (he had a good signal from me up in Tortola) and he telephoned the US coastguard in Key West and they alerted a near by facility (warship) to rendezvous with me and take off my crew.

The only point I am trying to make is - as you stated - Ships since 1999 are not required to monitor 2182 - The coast guard / military of many/most countries (apparently including the US who stated this to DJ) do not as routine monitor the emergency frequencies 24/7.

So whilst SSB in cruising yachts is a wonderful tool, its usagage for S&R activation is very limited - buy an iperb -

The Uk department requires people wanting to operate such equipment to take a very expensive (£3-400) and extensive course to obtain and operators licence for a piece of epuipment that is basicly very simple to operater and understand. The justification for this expensive and mainly irrelevent course is safety... really?

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[Ships_Cat]

It seems that you do not understand what I am saying. MF/HF is an integral part of the GMDSS, which you clearly have no understanding of. Perhaps you may wish to find out more about it yourself - I will not bother helping as as I am wasting my time with you.

John

<hr width=100% size=1>I am the cat but I am only 6.

 

[Sea Devil]

Dear John,

What is it you are trying to tell me in jargon free language?

What I am trying to tell you is that in most of the world ships do not maintain a constant listening watch on the 2182 frequency and up... true or false?

What I am trying to tell you is that thoughout most of the world, coast radio stations do not exist any more - (I heard the last Aussie one go off the air a year or so ago - bit sad as the operator signed off for the last time) - True or false?

Since the inception of the IPERB as the primary Search and Rescue activator the HF/SSB emergency frequencies have been monitored by fewer and fewer countries. True or False?

Probably the majority of Merchant ships communicate by satalite telephone to their owners rather than HF. True or false?

Today private yachts and fishermen are the most extensive users of HF. True or False?

The cost of training in the UK for a licence to operate a pretty simple piece of equipment is £3-400.

No licence is required to operate a yacht.

I do understand that NZ is very over legislated and tried to impose its nanny state views on the international sailing community only to have its knuckles rapped and have to retreat from this form of excessive control. My feeling is that the radio procedures you outline are equelly out of step with a modern world.

Nothing personal intended to a 6 year old cat
regards


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