Giving way..

[winch2]

Sorry if this has been done before, and lets face it its pretty basic but after what happend to us on Sunday well... a guys got to to vent..right?

Tacking our lumbering old Crabber out of the harbour entrance with tide and motor running and there was a very busy dinghy race on.. The pack were well on their away but there were a couple of stragglers behind us catching us fast and we're all on port tack with them to windward and about 15 feet behind us...with not a lot of room left as we approached the steep shore. Anyway the front one starts to push down on us looking daggers as if he wants us to yield and they're both to windward. Well in the end we did yield and bore off down wind a smidge, they than rounded up to port and shot off to catch the pack who were now a long way in the distance exiting the harbour entrance.

The thing is the harbour channel is naturally pretty narrow and there are a lot of cruisers sailing in and out and we're just a tiny 19 foot traditional day boat. . Its not a race track for the club to commandeer at will as there are many other users and we all need to get along so to speak and the last thing I wanted was for there to be an incident in what is a very narrow area of highly congested water.
Sorry for the grumble, I just felt rather put upon I suppose knowing we were right and they were wrong.. even tho they were... "racing".

 

[flaming]

Almost impossible to comment without being there to be honest.

All I would say is whilst quite clearly if they are overtaking then you are the stand on boat, if you have the engine running and can get out of their way by bearing away "a smidge" then that sounds like a kind thing to do for people who by the sound of it were not having a great day.

 

[SaltIre]

Maybe they thought you were motoring.

 

[awol]

Maybe they thought you were motoring.

As overtaking boats they still have to keep clear no matter how you are propelled.

 

[winch2]

Thanks everyone, all good points. Our outboard is a weedy little thing. Even with a following tide the incoming channel swell is enough to slow us right down so I thght it prudent to have it running for added security really...and we were healed over with a single reef, in a nice breeze and to all intended purposes 'sailing'.
Suppose my point is. There appears to be this unwritten rule that a 'pack' of dinghy racers have right of way come what may over everyone else which I vehemently disagree with.

 

[oldbloke]

Leaving aside rights and wrongs, one things that often (?always) comes out in these threads is that regular racers, especially dinghy racers in confined waters have a very different concept of too close. To them getting to within 1 boatlength doesn't even register as an event

 

[Buck Turgidson]

They were overtaking, you were motoring but without seeing it its not possible to comment.

 

[oldbloke]

Boat overtaking/being overtook is the one where sail/motor doesn't matter

 

[ylop]

we all need to get along so to speak and the last thing I wanted was for there to be an incident in what is a very narrow area of highly congested water.

I’d probably reflect on that sentence a bit. And then re-read your opening para:

Sorry if this has been done before, and lets face it its pretty basic but after what happend to us on Sunday well... a guys got to to vent..right?

1. In many places dinghy racing is children - anything from about 8yrs old upwards; even if adults potentially not that experienced
2. Have you considered what training, if any, they’ve had in rules of the road? Probably port/starboard tack, windward boat, sail over power.
3. The competitors probably had little say in the timing or exact location of the event; perhaps your gripe is with the organiser

 

[Chris 249]

It's a hard one. On one hand, as we all know racing boats have no extra rights. On the other hand, if a cruiser has to change course there is not normally any loss in the purpose of their outing, whereas if a racer has to change course there often IS a loss in the purpose of their outing.

Yes, the cruiser does not have to change course under the rules, but then again the powerboat that drops anchor nearby and starts blasting out doof doof from the speakers does not have to turn down their stereo under the rules, and the other powerboat that comes past at a distance that is legal under IRPCS but causes us to roll in their wash also doesn't have to change course under the rules - but we would prefer it if those craft did not merely follow the rules but also considered others.

Yes, some racers can be overbearing - but as a racer I've also been amazed at the way some cruisers will just come through a 50 boat start line with or without the IRPCS being in their favour, when all they had to do was to bear away ten degrees.

In situations where time is clearly important to one party but not to the other, isn't it reasonable to tend towards allowing the former to get ahead as we normally do in other situations in everyday life?

In this case it could perhaps be said that both sides did the right thing - the racer may have "looked daggers" but despite clearly being put out did not shout or actually comment whereas the OP felt put out but got out of their way.

 

[ylop]

In situations where time is clearly important to one party but not to the other, isn't it reasonable to tend towards allowing the former to get ahead as we normally do in other situations in everyday life?

your post makes sense, but how can you know whether the “cruiser” is in a rush to get somewhere? Eg, a tidal gate, to a destination in time to catch a train, to a busy anchorage, etc. However if you think there aren’t people who get pleasure in getting in the way of other people “in everyday life” you are mistaken. A dinghy race is much like a parkrun - every so often some wise guy decides that “it’s a public place” over rules common sense. Every so often a park runners thinks they are running the olympics and someone just walking their dog is inconsiderate.

I’ve raced dinghies a very long time ago. I can’t say I even recall someone sailing a yacht through a busy start line - perhaps our race officers just put enough thought into the location of the start of the risk of multiple dinghies all on collision courses seemed like unnecessary stress for the local yachts.

 

[flaming]

your post makes sense, but how can you know whether the “cruiser” is in a rush to get somewhere? Eg, a tidal gate, to a destination in time to catch a train, to a busy anchorage, etc.

Whilst true, the time lost by the cruiser in an incident like the OP, maybe 30s at an extreme, is going to make no difference to whether they make the tidal gate or train etc.

I definitely also think that the type of incident in the OP doesn't really occur in the same way to those of us who race when we're out for a cruise. I think this is because we have a much more instinctive understanding of what the racers are trying to do, and therefore what course we can take to make everyone's life easier.

For example in the OP, he says they were on port, they were closing from astern slightly to windward, and then they turned to port, heading up, and set off after the pack. Given that they weren't already following the pack it sounds like there was either a mark of the course, or a navigational hazard, that they needed to round before they could follow them.

I would bet good money that any of us regular racers in his place seeing the leaders and the way they had gone would have instinctively understood that. And that further we would also have realised that with them wanting to turn to port the very last thing that the racers closing in from behind would have wanted to do would have been to go below the cruising boat. Not only because that would be the long way round a boat who might not also want to turn to port at that point, but even more importantly because going through the lee of a larger but slower boat is seriously painful and will cost a lot of time.
So being put in that position I would expect that most of us would have given them room to our windward side without even really thinking about it.

And I also think that the vast majority of the friction between cruisers and racers in incidents like this stems largely from the different comfort levels with close crosses etc. I've had port starboard crossing situations where I've seen the starboard tack cruiser and assessed that there is no risk of collision (as we do dozens of times in every race) and we will cross clear by a few boatlengths, only to have them alter course and shout as we cross them. And of course as we are crossing in front with both boats beating to windward they couldn't have hit us had they tried. But I get it, a cross where the other boat is only a couple of boatlengths clear is outside of their comfort zone. I don't really see a solution to that though, as I'm not going to start ducking cruising boats that I'm crossing comfortably and giving up large distances to windward just because they might be ones who aren't comfortable with the clearance that I am when there is no risk of collision.

I've also had a cruising boat call that I was "way too close" when I ducked them, even though I'd given them more space than I'd have given a competitor. Again, I get that being lined up by a race boat on port (as a good duck spends a lot of time with the bow pointing at the other helm...) and then having them cross 15 feet behind you is not going to be in everyone's comfort zone, but again I don't really see a solution to that as I'm not going to give up more distance to windward than necessary just because some (but not all) cruisers are not comfortable with another boat being within a boatlength in light winds and flat water.

 

[Chris 249]

your post makes sense, but how can you know whether the “cruiser” is in a rush to get somewhere? Eg, a tidal gate, to a destination in time to catch a train, to a busy anchorage, etc. However if you think there aren’t people who get pleasure in getting in the way of other people “in everyday life” you are mistaken. A dinghy race is much like a parkrun - every so often some wise guy decides that “it’s a public place” over rules common sense. Every so often a park runners thinks they are running the olympics and someone just walking their dog is inconsiderate.

I’ve raced dinghies a very long time ago. I can’t say I even recall someone sailing a yacht through a busy start line - perhaps our race officers just put enough thought into the location of the start of the risk of multiple dinghies all on collision courses seemed like unnecessary stress for the local yachts.

Fair points, but I've never met (or been) a cruiser who ran on a schedule that three boat lengths would affect. I currently race dinghies and boards (and sometimes drag the cat out) and cruise a 36'er so I'm still involved in both cruising and racing aspects.

As far as cruising yachts going through start lines goes, it varies enormously on the location. In some places I sail there is no alternative location for a start line that will fit the reasonable criteria, but there are many alternative routes for cruisers. Other places may be different, and I've certainly sailed on places where cruising yachts literally had miles of other water but couldn't be bothered deviating a hundred metres.

Completely agree that some people go way over the top - as a keen racing/touring/commuter cyclist I've regularly been horrified by the attitude of many cyclists, for example.

Flaming's point about different approaches to crossing distances is very true, IMHO. It's one of those things that is almost inevitable and where arguably there is no "right" and "wrong". It's interesting, however, that some people get worried about a 14ft boat crossing 2m away at 6 knots, but those same people will happily drive a 2 ton car at 30mph past people standing on a footpath three feet away away.

 

[dunedin]

I am struggling to understand the description of the situation the OP describes.
All beating to windward on part tack, nearing the channel edge. Dinghies are to windward and astern.
All the OP needed to do was maintain course and dinghies would either overtake to windward or quickly tack off.
If running out of room and needing to tack OP should point higher to slow down and call needing room to tack. Sailing high and slow the dinghies would almost certainly tack off and no issue.

 

[winch2]

I am struggling to understand the description of the situation the OP describes.
All beating to windward on part tack, nearing the channel edge. Dinghies are to windward and astern.
All the OP needed to do was maintain course and dinghies would either overtake to windward or quickly tack off.
If running out of room and needing to tack OP should point higher to slow down and call needing room to tack. Sailing high and slow the dinghies would almost certainly tack off and no issue.

You've understood perfectly and thank you for affirming what I now realise what we should have done. It's a new (to us) heavy old boat and yes we should have just kept steady, shouted our intentions and all might have been well.

Tho I'm not much of a shouter and I suppose I was just a tad intimidated cause we're not racers or were racing but he was barrelling down on us and made no intention of what he was doing other than looking like he was about to ram us.
Ive learned a lot from you all and feel much more confidant now about holding ground and just getting on with it.

 

[winch2]

I’d probably reflect on that sentence a bit. And then re-read your opening para:


1. In many places dinghy racing is children - anything from about 8yrs old upwards; even if adults potentially not that experienced
2. Have you considered what training, if any, they’ve had in rules of the road? Probably port/starboard tack, windward boat, sail over power.
3. The competitors probably had little say in the timing or exact location of the event; perhaps your gripe is with the organiser

Thanks for your interest. I can see your defending the racing fraternity and that's fine we all have our loyalties.

If I may. These were not 'children' they were at least older teenagers in what looked like pretty expensive racing dinghys dripping in carbon fibre etc and there must have been at least 20 of them.

As I said this was all happening in a very narrow strip of water just before low tide and in fact ahead of me and just behind the pack another larger cruiser abrubtly turned around and ran back which struck me as odd, maybe he thght it all too much?

As far as the organisers are concerned you may have a very good point. It's Saturday, early afternoon, beautiful day perfect conditions and everyone is out and they go and launch a 20 plus 'childrens' race right in the narrowest part of the channel.

If that is the case then surely all competitors should be at the very least fully conversant with the rules but maybe more importantly understand that there are other channel users who could easily be intimidated by their speed and presence.

Having said all that a few minutes later we encountered the pack as it ran back down towards us like a herd of Wilderbeast but now this time all was clear and we continued to tack across them and they all split up around us, but even so it was still just a tad nerve wracking.

 

[dunedin]

You've understood perfectly and thank you for affirming what I now realise what we should have done. It's a new (to us) heavy old boat and yes we should have just kept steady, shouted our intentions and all might have been well.

Tho I'm not much of a shouter and I suppose I was just a tad intimidated cause we're not racers or were racing but he was barrelling down on us and made no intention of what he was doing other than looking like he was about to ram us.
Ive learned a lot from you all and feel much more confidant now about holding ground and just getting on with it.

It's not a matter of shouting, but rather politely calling for space to tack because of the shallows. Luffing and slowing first would probably make the intention clear and avoid the need to call. But racers would understand a polite call of "water to tack please", as applies both in racing and cruising.

 

[flaming]

You've understood perfectly and thank you for affirming what I now realise what we should have done. It's a new (to us) heavy old boat and yes we should have just kept steady, shouted our intentions and all might have been well.

Tho I'm not much of a shouter and I suppose I was just a tad intimidated cause we're not racers or were racing but he was barrelling down on us and made no intention of what he was doing other than looking like he was about to ram us.
Ive learned a lot from you all and feel much more confidant now about holding ground and just getting on with it.

If I may, "shouting your intentions" is an extremely bad idea when it comes to avoiding collisions. It risks misunderstanding, mishearing and in almost no circumstances does it make things clearer. It is no accident that in the racing rules there is one call, and one call only, that ever applies. Which is the clear and unambiguous "Room to tack". If you ever shout anything to ask another boat to get out of the way, make it that and that only, especially if it is a racing boat.

Remember that if you decide, as is undoubtedly your right, that you are going to apply COLREGS to the situation that being the overtaken boat does not just give you rights, it also infers responsibilities. The most obvious of which being to maintain your course, remembering as well that the definition of "course" is not necessarily a straight line, but can of course include a tack to avoid sandbanks etc. Again, in both COLREGS and RRS this is expected.

It does appear that the lesson you want to take from this, and expect us to support, is simply that the racers were in the wrong. They may well have been, without being there it's almost impossible for us to comment.

However that also strikes me as you missing an opportunity to really think about the situation and how it developed over the minutes beforehand and thinking about if there were steps you could have taken to avoid the situation, manage the traffic better and give everyone on your boat a less stressful time. Those boats did not teleport into that position did they...?
When you are in busy waters it can be tricky, but it's well worth trying to figure out how your future course is going to interact with what others might want to do.

For example in this case, if I've understood this correctly, you found yourself approaching the edge of the channel on port with boats stacked up on your hip and overtaking. Not a great situation to find yourself in. Had you recognised that beforehand you might have considered an earlier tack when you could have done so and crossed their path on starboard, and done that before then tacking back onto port to windward of them. That way their overtake would have taken place with them not actually near you as they sailed faster on port tack down to leeward of you then crossed ahead of you when they themselves tacked back onto starboard. Again I recognise that you have no official "need" to do this under any set of rules, but consider how much less stressful it would have been for you and your crew had you done that instead.

 

[ylop]

Thanks for your interest. I can see your defending the racing fraternity and that's fine we all have our loyalties.

You are mistaken - I've no loyalty to anyone in the racing fraternity - I think I've only raced once this century! I did some racing a very long time ago but it was never really my thing, sailing round in circles never made much sense to me. I just think sometimes it can be useful to be able to see things from the other side. A lot of effort goes into organising events - and the harder we make it for organisers, coaches, instructors, etc the more likely that people just don't bother. That's not just for sailing: cycling, running, hill walking, kayaking, etc could all do will a smile and a "its nice to see people getting out". The alternative is for people to stay at home on their own playing virtual sailing games so that a small number of grumpy entitled people can do their activity in exactly the time and place they prefer.

 

[Puffin10032]

I'm afraid I still can't make any sense of your description. Where was the shore? Was it to port/windward of you or to starboard/leeward of you?