Getting away with Murder?

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....I would like to discuss the Cliff Richard concert I attended last night at Wembley Areana...

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I bet it doesn't get as much interest as a discussion on murder /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
To get back on topic, some friends of mine were chartering a few years ago in the Caribbean. They anchored in Marigot Bay (St Lucia) and at 3am were woken by the sounds of someone going through their belongings. Now those were three big guys, and they jumped up, stark naked, and caught hold of the guy who was a local who had swum out to the boat and was looking for any passports, valuables etc.

He was a big guy, but they got him and tied him to the mast with a halyard. I've seen the photos that their wives took, and this guy looked s**t scared.

What do you do with a prisoner tied to the mast at 3am in St Lucia? He was squealing and struggling, so in the end they let him go, after threatening him with a winch handle and he swam away.

Next day they went to report the matter to the local cop shop, and asked what they should have done for future reference. They were told in all seriousness that the best course of action would have been to have broken his arms and legs and thrown him overboard "because after all, lots of sharks around these waters".

Hmmmmmm....
 
I have a friend who hails from one of the Southern states of the good ol' USA. His credo is "Kill the SOBs. That way the police only have to take one statement". He reckons one of the reasons for the low turnover in property in his county is on account of the number of people buried in their back yards.
 
I want to know why UK judges can't hand down sentences of more than 30-35 years, i.e. why cant they hand down say 99 years (for each offence - and not to run concurrently) and then let the 1/2 time served bit come into play?

Just pleading guilty gets you a 33% discount on the term laid down by the court - what's that all about?


It should be about the time fits the crime and the criminal - OK if it's a murder, then he/she gets to spend a lot of time behind bars but if it's a habitual burglar/shoplifter or car thief then after (say) 5 counts there out. We as a society need to tell these people in no uncertain terms that their behaviour is unacceptable and if they continue then it's a permanent life behind bars for them.

I also believe that if a crim is going to spend the rest of his/her "natural" behind bars we (society) should offer them a syringe which will end it all - but it's their choice if they use it.

Peter.
 
"Just pleading guilty gets you a 33% discount on the term laid down by the court - what's that all about?"

Yes

But only if you plead at the earliest opportunity ie at the police station when arrested.

The reasoning is that by doing so the guilty party saves time and money for the system and spares the victims having to appear to give evidence - which many people find quite traumatic.

The often quoted case of pleading guilty on the day of the trial does not earn 33% remission - usually none at all or perhaps 10% if the bench is in a good mood.
 
Yes this stuff galls me too /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif But the problem is open western liberal democracy is imperfect, and the alternatives many of which are great on law and order are not very attractive - eg: Milosevic, Hussein, Talaban, Iran, Adolf, etc.

Having worked in the middle east in the earlier part of my career I was impressed by the law and order of the moderate Arab states - a harsh judicial system, but it works, and as a result they don't have 1% of their population as wasted human beings rotting in revolving prison cells (ie tiny prison population). For me life should mean life not 7 years. How to stop the cycle of valuable young folk being harvested into a life of crime will be one of the biggest challenges facing democracies everywhere. We're soft, there is little deterant, we're harsh, then one step away from 'isims! No quick answers. The Old testament was quite good on this topic! Eye for an eye, etc.
 
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II would like to discuss the Cliff Richard concert I attended last night at Wembley Areana- absolutely fabulous, and guess what nobody got murdered !

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SWMBO was at that concert, She swears she neither screamed not threw her knickers on the stage but I'd like a witness to confirm it.

Fred Rift
 
absolutely disgusted with this forum being used to promote Cliff Richard when I thought it was solely dedicated to Crime and Punishment.

There again the problems with my Seagull could run to a couple of chapters - so any chance of cheering us all up
with lots of summer cruise pics.

That or a really good chat about Iraq -
 
Mixture or replies shows how mixed up we are about these matters The question we need to ask:-

1. Are we a caring civilised society or not.

2. Does a civilised caring society sanction the taking of human life eg state killing

3. If people commit a crime do we want to rehabilitate them or punish them.

4. If punish how long for what crime.

5. Are you happy to pay tax to keep people in prison for so long -eg life sentences

6. Taken to its conclusion that if you really want to rehabilitate and you are convinced its a one off crime then you should let the person go free. Now the word punishment creeps in!!


Me I am fed up with the sanctimoneous crap of people pretending to be civilised when really they are choosing to spend money in their own back yard (to support UK prisons) while happly letting maby far nicer people die in another back yard as there is not enough money to go round (hunger in Africa).

Lets all vote that there are people who are contributing members of society, others are takers - like criminals. We make it plain that these will be given 1 chance to rehabilitate then if they fail lets get rid of them. There are far to many people on this planet anyway so lets just be positive and choose those who are going to die!!

Now discuss that !!
 
and when you execute the wrong person ....... or worse, if one of your kin are executed in error ............ what then /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
 
We are already executing the wrong people by turning our back on many who would work hard and contribute to our society.

We do it through moral cowardise by doing nothing in case we positively kill the wrong person. By this attitude we let 1000's die but feel sanctimoneous as their blood is not on our hands!!
 
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............ what then /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

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Forget execution.

Would you settle for a tattoo on the forehead and an implanted electronic tracking device that has to be scanned at a police station, say, each week?
 
I have it!

There is an Island,

that could have a wall built at the road onto it,

Armed guards in boats around it,

Give them farm animals and implements to cultivate the land,

Let them build their own homes,

Have one person in charge who could run the whole joint, who would enjoy speaking to them and reminding them how low they are, cause inter prison fighting, upset the un-upset-able, and break their spirit so they never ever want to do anything wrong again, or do us all a favour and do themselves in rather than be chastised by the Governor!!!

The Island is HAYLING ISLAND and the Governor is CHUGGIN' !!!!!!!! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
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.....far nicer people die in another back yard as there is not enough money to go round (hunger in Africa).....

.... takers - like criminals. We make it plain that these will be given 1 chance to rehabilitate then if they fail lets get rid of them.....

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Perhaps we could arrange 1 for 1 swaps!
 
I disagree, we dont execute ppl by those means, nor through neglect, nor through sending illegals back to their own, who may then be abused or even killed by their own. same as we dont execute the poor victims of released murderers

we dont execute those others by turning our backs - same as we didnt execute the innocents in recent global atrocities /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

standing by unable to interfear, watching whilst others commit a crime, isnt a crime, and I for one do not feel morally guilty /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
 
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...... watching whilst others commit a crime, isnt a crime, ....... /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

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I suggest that you are not correct in that assumption.

Watching while others commit a crime and not doing what is within your power to prevent that crime from happening is an offense punishable at law.
 
You are able to interfere.

You divert the money that supports out overblown prison population bribe say the Sudan leaders to put all the UK prisoners in humanitarian camps. With the money saved spend it on food for those dying of hunger.

It takes guts to do something positive abut easier to speak a load of sanctimoneous crap that leaves you doing nothing and many people dying through your lack of action.

I am sure there are many other ways people could suggest we interfere in a positive way!

Just carry on doing nothing wringing your hand in helplessness and a clear concious!
 
I suggest that when picking a few words from a point od view, and using them as a quote - without including the meaning/intention or content of the point of view, is a cheap journalistic ploy to confuse the issue

I said, and intended to say ...... 'without the opportunity to interfear'

as in kosovo, as in uganda, as in zimbabwe, as in dafour, as in sudan and congo, liberia and god knows where else ..... as in the extermination camps hitler ran ........ even in the yankie prison in cuba - when you think about it, even our poolice tell us not to 'have a go' now, but to call the professionals in to deal with todays violent incidents

so I dont know what planet you are on, but you do not seem to appreciate the niceties of just what one can do when you can do it, to who and how much you can do it - without being hung, drawn and quartered by armchair critics, the un, the eu and anyone else involved in upholding our international laws of today

so - I restate my opinion that it is not a crime to observe an ongoing crime, when there is nothing one can do about it. it may be morally offensive, it may be 'cowardly', but its not a crime. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

just as it is not a crime if you do not report someone using a mobile phone whilst driving etc etc etc ........
 
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absolutely disgusted with this forum being used to promote Cliff Richard when I thought it was solely dedicated to Crime and Punishment.

There again the problems with my Seagull could run to a couple of chapters - so any chance of cheering us all up
with lots of summer cruise pics.

That or a really good chat about Iraq -

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Right, now we can bring the tread drift back into line:

The most common argument against capital punishment is that you might kill the wrong person. In the case of Saddam there can be no possible doubt that he was responsible for many thousands of deaths. So a question for the antis - Is execution right in this case?
 
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