"Get the furling line off that winch!"...

[Vega1447]

In at least some circumstances, I count Jerrytug, John Morris, Fergus, MoodyNick, Nigel Mercier, Neil_Y, Barnacle Bill, JosephMoore, and a customer of Javelin's yard. Not sure what your point is meant to be.

For what it's worth, I accept that it is sometimes appropriate to winch a furling line, but I think it's safer to assume never and make rare exceptions. As I said at the beginning, I have never yet made an exception that I didn't regret.

However, the post you quoted was a specific response to "gardenshed"'s point about the load being the same by hand or by winch. This is true only up to the point that something jams.

Pete

A bit tetchy.

My 'point' is that using the winch as a turning block (and secondarily as a way to keep the gains made) is not the same as winching the furling line with a winch handle.. and is less likely to overload the furler.

Not scoring points, just contributing from my modest experience...

John

 

[Lakesailor]

Could this be the new "anchor thread"?

 

[jerrytug]

A bit tetchy.

My 'point' is that using the winch as a turning block (and secondarily as a way to keep the gains made) is not the same as winching the furling line with a winch handle.. and is less likely to overload the furler.

Not scoring points, just contributing from my modest experience...

John

I hope I'm not splitting hairs,but why not put the furling line in a self tailer? Then you can do something else and it is still sitting there. You can ease the sheets a bit and turn the winch HANDLE yes I said handle! You can feel through the handle if there is a snag on the furler. It's just like having an extra pair of arms which do not tire.
Obviously a winch has the strength to rip the forestay fitting out of the foredeck. As said above it all depends!

Edited to add: i think ST winches are god's own gift and they should be used fully, and shorthanded furling is a prime example. Not using the power,so much as the self tailing and the handy handle,so you can grab a few inches behind your back one handed without looking,if you are busy mixing the Pimms with the other hand.

 

[Wandering Star]

I'm firmly in the camp of the pro-winch mafia. Never really thought about it before this thread but not about to change my methods as a result of reading the replies! If its a light wind and I can easily haul in the furling line by hand then I do so but if it's blowing a bit i have no qualms about using the winch to assist! I like to think there is enough empathy between me and my boat systems to read the signs and to know from the "feel" of the winch it was time to stop winching before any damage might be done due to halyard wrap or whatever. So far so good I'm pleased to report!

This thread is a bit like the old anchor threads - I'm not decrying the new breed of anchors, but the arguments that the old CQR anchor suddenly became unusable and unsafe was just silly. The CQR (and others) are as reliable now within their known parameters as they ever were! Not to say the new breeds aren't better or worse.

Just my 2p worth!

Cheers, Brian.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Hmm I think a little more clarification of what I am suggesting is required.

People oblivious to boat size on here sometimes.

It might be possible to ALWAYS furl a small headsail on a small (say 22 foot?) yacht by hand.

Putting turns round a winch doesn't add to the load on the line. It just acts as a sort of ratchet block and as I suggested before is seamanlike and safer than having a furling line potentially run away through your hands.

Normally I never have to put a handle in the winch and wind but we have a self tailer specifically for the reefing line and in strong winds with the sail completely depowered on our 39' boat sometimes you HAVE to winch. This is with a well greased and maintained system with proper blocks on the rail for the reefing line.

There needs to be a but of common sense and seamanship used when winching. You can tell if the load is heavy and ought to be looking for the cause and not just winding the handle with your head down and your mind in neutral..

All IMHO of course...

 

[Talulah]

Since it is the start of the season I'll just mention one problem when using winches.
Often is the case that furling the Genoa in the first strong winds of the season you realise there is still some sail flapping whilst you've run out of furling line on the drum. The sail was hoisted in relatively calm conditions and not enough spare turns of the furling line have put around the drum to take account of when the sail is furled tightly.
Often people furl away, see they still have a way to go and carry on winching with ever greater effort unable to spot the lack of line on the drum. The intensity increases until the furling line snaps and the entire headsail now unfurls again.
They then discover they can't figure out or are unable to for whatever reason lower the flogging headsail and ultimately it rips along the extrusion.
This happened to one skipper who was out on Talulah. I was not on board.

Often, if I'm by myself I'll just go forward and furl away by hand.
I'm very wary of whipping lines though and so only if conditions are right.

 

[Barnacle Bill]

Hmm I think a little more clarification of what I am suggesting is required.

People oblivious to boat size on here sometimes.

It might be possible to ALWAYS furl a small headsail on a small (say 22 foot?) yacht by hand.

Putting turns round a winch doesn't add to the load on the line. It just acts as a sort of ratchet block and as I suggested before is seamanlike and safer than having a furling line potentially run away through your hands.

Normally I never have to put a handle in the winch and wind but we have a self tailer specifically for the reefing line and in strong winds with the sail completely depowered on our 39' boat sometimes you HAVE to winch. This is with a well greased and maintained system with proper blocks on the rail for the reefing line.

There needs to be a but of common sense and seamanship used when winching. You can tell if the load is heavy and ought to be looking for the cause and not just winding the handle with your head down and your mind in neutral..

All IMHO of course...

Agreed. On the 55 ft with the big Yankee you had to winch (with handle) and at the same time keep the flogging under control. You should be able to tell if you're winching the fittings out of the deck!

 

[john_morris_uk]

Since it is the start of the season I'll just mention one problem when using winches.
Often is the case that furling the Genoa in the first strong winds of the season you realise there is still some sail flapping whilst you've run out of furling line on the drum. The sail was hoisted in relatively calm conditions and not enough spare turns of the furling line have put around the drum to take account of when the sail is furled tightly.
Often people furl away, see they still have a way to go and carry on winching with ever greater effort unable to spot the lack of line on the drum. The intensity increases until the furling line snaps and the entire headsail now unfurls again.
They then discover they can't figure out or are unable to for whatever reason lower the flogging headsail and ultimately it rips along the extrusion.
This happened to one skipper who was out on Talulah. I was not on board.

Often, if I'm by myself I'll just go forward and furl away by hand.
I'm very wary of whipping lines though and so only if conditions are right.

You are quite right and as I said, "A bit of common sense and seamanship is required."

 

[davidfox]

So do I in any sort of wind!

 

[Koeketiene]

Could this be the new "anchor thread"?

Looks like it - some interesting points were made though.

 

[Simondjuk]

I've never found the need to winch a furling line on any boat up to about 50 feet in any conditions where the genoa wouldn't have long since been fully furled in favour of the storm jib.

At most, on occasion, I've had to double the furling line in my hands to provide a better grip until the sail has been reduced in size to some degree.

Maybe I have the grip of a gorilla though.

 

[john_morris_uk]

I've never found the need to winch a furling line on any boat up to about 50 feet in any conditions where the genoa wouldn't have long since been fully furled in favour of the storm jib.

At most, on occasion, I've had to double the furling line in my hands to provide a better grip until the sail has been reduced in size to some degree.

Maybe I have the grip of a gorilla though.

Different ships different splices? I very actively discourage doubling of lines in hand and I guess it all depends in a few more factors. Ours is a masthead rig so the genoa is quite large. We might have most if the sail ou when sailing downwind in moderate condition (and far more out than if hard on the wind) and you would find it hard to pull the reefing line in by hand even with grip like a gorilla.

 

[Blueboatman]

My two turns worth:

In a bit of a blow where furling is required and it ain't feasable to bear away, I have taken to using the very nice self tailer of the spinnaker winch, whilst easing sheet at a commensurate and sympathetic rate with my other hand.... ( without handle)

Seems prudent for smoother, safer singlehanding to me but, hey ho learning all the time with these things?

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Another vote for winch + handle. It doesn't take much mechanical sympathy to tell when a winch is loading up and stop to investigate IMHO. The other hand is then free to keep a bit of tension on the sheet and get a nice tight furl - very important if the boat is to be left for a long time.

Agree about running out of furling line though, been there, done that, but certainly didn't come close to breaking anything.

 

[RupertW]

Another vote for winch + handle. It doesn't take much mechanical sympathy to tell when a winch is loading up and stop to investigate IMHO. The other hand is then free to keep a bit of tension on the sheet and get a nice tight furl - very important if the boat is to be left for a long time.

Agree about running out of furling line though, been there, done that, but certainly didn't come close to breaking anything.

+1 - I find that controlling the furling line on the way out is best done by a turn around the winch except in very light winds and I always insist that ropes are never wrapped around a hand as too difficult to let go. When furling I use the winch as a snubber but occasionally use the winch handle and self tailer so I can control the jib sheet on the other winch. My wife nearly always uses the winch handle which is fine by me as she isn't going to keep the jib sheet tight when rolling in.

Given that roller reefing has to take the strain of some very big winch forces when partly out I don't understand why it's fine to winch in a jib sheet hard but too much of a strain to winch in a reefing line. The only problem I've found with too much force on the reefing line is that a corner of the sail gets left flying and needs sorting out then, or later.

 

[Mudisox]

Could this be the new "anchor thread"?

Personally I'd use a red floating winch handle and a single turn left on the genoa winch as I haul it in.

 

[Lakesailor]

Another vote for winch + handle. It doesn't take much mechanical sympathy to tell when a winch is loading up and stop to investigate IMHO.

From some of queries on these forums I would think that some sailors don't have much mechanical sympathy.

 

[lw395]

According to Harken using the winch is unnessessary and can cause damage....t.

What Harken actually say, quoting from the Unit 2 manual, which is the furling gear for a boat around 40ft:
"Do not use a winch to force a system to turn. If you are certain
that the system is operating properly, you may use a winch to make furling easier."

So don't use a winch because something has gone tight or tangled, but you can use a winch to counter the force off the wind on the sail, with the sheet eased, but the sail not flogging.
They also recommend a ratchet block, to give some drag on the furling line as the sail unfurls. This helps prevent riding turns on the drum.

The force on the gear winding in the reefing line is a lot less than results from being close hauled with a couple of turns in.
If you bear off and ease the sheet, you can get some turns in very easily with a winch in high gear, the sail will roll much more neatly than when flogging.
If there was no ratchet block, I would definitely use a winch to snub the furling line on a biggish boat in any breeze.
Fighting with the furling line is just silly and dangerous.

I'd have invited the skipper to pull it in himself.

 

[lw395]

Different ships different splices? I very actively discourage doubling of lines in hand and I guess it all depends in a few more factors. Ours is a masthead rig so the genoa is quite large. We might have most if the sail ou when sailing downwind in moderate condition (and far more out than if hard on the wind) and you would find it hard to pull the reefing line in by hand even with grip like a gorilla.

That's in line with my own experience.
Sailing free with plenty of genoa out, you want to reduce sail before rounding up toward close hauled. If you dump the sheets, there will still be a lot of weight in the sail, because the sheets are still pulling the clew toward the boat.
Far kinder to the sail to wind it in at the luff without letting it flog.
Of course you need good gear in proper working order.
And you need to know to look for the halyard wrapping on less well sorted boats.
It should be easy with a winch, not low gear on your Lewmar 52!
But if you are using a winch as a well controlled tool, you can be looking at where the sail is rolling and thinking about that, rather than worrying about damaging yourself as you struggle.

 

[benjenbav]

... came the cry from the skipper of a boat I was on recently, as I tried to furl a flogging headsail on a 40 footer in a F4/5.

I did as I was told at the time, and eventually got it in by hand over handing on the line, then asked what the issue was.... too much lateral strain on the furling mechanism came the reply.

I explained I was not using or intending to use the winch handle, so with just a couple of turns on the winch and pulling by hand I was simply using it as a method of making it easier to furl, but using the friction on the drum to prevent the sail pulling back. No additional gearing hence no additional tension. Had I put the line in the self tailer and started cranking the handle, it would have been a different issue.

The skipper maintained that the furling line should never go on the winch - much better to bear away to blanket the sail behind the main, to make it easier to furl.

Comments invited.

The magic word seems to have been absent from the skipper's request.