german main sheet system

Birdseye

Birdseye

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How does it work? Does it operate the main sheet track as you do when tacking or is it simply a way of hauling in the mainsheet when coming harder onto the wind? And why is it called German when we dont give a nationality to other bits if the boat?
 
Mainsheet track works like any other system, the difference is that rather than using a multiple purchase block and tackle there is a simple 2:1 purchase which is taken to winches on each side of the cockpit via blocks near the gooseneck and on the deck.

System seems to owe its origins to a German Admiral's Cup entry and thus the name.
 
birdseye said:
How does it work? Does it operate the main sheet track as you do when tacking or is it simply a way of hauling in the mainsheet when coming harder onto the wind? And why is it called German when we dont give a nationality to other bits if the boat?
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Have you tried using a Spanish windlass to avoid a Chinese gybe with a Bermudan mainsail
 
It may also use a bridle rather than a track as on some of the latest Bavarias. Biggest advantages seem to be that it brings the tail of the sheet(s) back to the helm (useful in boats with big cockpits) and avoids lots of spare rope in the cockpit. The idea of double ended sheets is not new and they were quite common before the advent of tracks.
 
Tranona said:
It may also use a bridle rather than a track as on some of the latest Bavarias. Biggest advantages seem to be that it brings the tail of the sheet(s) back to the helm (useful in boats with big cockpits) and avoids lots of spare rope in the cockpit. The idea of double ended sheets is not new and they were quite common before the advent of tracks.
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That's hardly the same thing as a 'German Admirals' Cup' mainsheet where the point of it is to allow the traveller and sheet to work independently, giving efficient and quick control of sheeting angle and leach tension.
It's distinction from previous double ended systems is that the sheet does not move through any blocks as the traveller is adjusted.
 
Presumably you have to haul in the main on the same side you last eased it, or you'd end up with no mainsheet left on one side and a pile of the stuff on the other?
 
BelleSerene said:
Presumably you have to haul in the main on the same side you last eased it, or you'd end up with no mainsheet left on one side and a pile of the stuff on the other?
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Some modern string is quite easy to splice into a continuous loop. The kicker and cunningham on my dinghy are done that way.
 
My Bavaria (30) has what seems to be a one-sided German mainsheet (designed by a one-armed German?). Theres a bridle instead of a traveller, one end is made off on the bottom of the boom (or one of the coachroof points; I forget which) and the other end goes on the long wander up to the mast and back again. I can't see what benefit would come from bringing both ends back to the cockpit.
 
trapezeartist said:
My Bavaria (30) has what seems to be a one-sided German mainsheet (designed by a one-armed German?). Theres a bridle instead of a traveller, one end is made off on the bottom of the boom (or one of the coachroof points; I forget which) and the other end goes on the long wander up to the mast and back again. I can't see what benefit would come from bringing both ends back to the cockpit.
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On a race boat, you want the crew up to windward.
On a cruising boat, different things are important, like one person being able to adjust the sheet and steer at the same time.
The system you have allows the cockpit to be free of sheet blocks and keeps the sheet out of the way of the sprayhood. Probably doesn't off the control of a GAC system, horses for courses....
 
lw395 said:
That's hardly the same thing as a 'German Admirals' Cup' mainsheet where the point of it is to allow the traveller and sheet to work independently, giving efficient and quick control of sheeting angle and leach tension.
It's distinction from previous double ended systems is that the sheet does not move through any blocks as the traveller is adjusted.
Click to expand...

But still referred to in the promotional material for the boat as a "German Mainsheet". Not unusual for labels to diverge from their original definition. In this case a useful way of distinguishing the system from the one that is more common on such boats as it retains one of the key elements of having two ends led back to the helm which makes control of the main easier.
 
birdseye said:
How does it work? Does it operate the main sheet track as you do when tacking or is it simply a way of hauling in the mainsheet when coming harder onto the wind? And why is it called German when we dont give a nationality to other bits if the boat?
Click to expand...

I've raced on a couple of boats with German systems. It's simply a different way to control the main sheet. The traveller is still independent and nothing to do with the main sheet system, just like other boats. The main sheet is led to a car on the traveller, but both ends go up to and along the boom and back to the cockpit, either along the side deck or under it. It means a lot less string in the cockpit and you don't need a fine-tuner.

It is normal to splice the mainsheet to make a continuous line. The main trimmer will control the mainsheet on a winch. When playing the waves or gusts it is quite common to ease out around the leeward winch whilst trimming on on the windward winch (a lot easier to demonstrate than explain).

There's usually a 2:1 ratio, although I have seen boats with a 4:1. It does mean you need a lot of oomph to get the main in quickly for a gybe - especially given the number of blocks the line has to go around. So you'll see a lot of racers simply grab the falls and haul the boom across by hand for a gybe.

Are you thinking of buying a boat with a German main.
 
Tranona said:
But still referred to in the promotional material for the boat as a "German Mainsheet". Not unusual for labels to diverge from their original definition. In this case a useful way of distinguishing the system from the one that is more common on such boats as it retains one of the key elements of having two ends led back to the helm which makes control of the main easier.
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Better than some 90s AWBs which had the main on a winch well out of reach from the helm, like 9ft forward of the wheel.
 
lpdsn said:
I've raced on a couple of boats with German systems. It's simply a different way to control the main sheet. The traveller is still independent and nothing to do with the main sheet system, just like other boats. The main sheet is led to a car on the traveller, but both ends go up to and along the boom and back to the cockpit, either along the side deck or under it. It means a lot less string in the cockpit and you don't need a fine-tuner.

It is normal to splice the mainsheet to make a continuous line. The main trimmer will control the mainsheet on a winch. When playing the waves or gusts it is quite common to ease out around the leeward winch whilst trimming on on the windward winch (a lot easier to demonstrate than explain).

There's usually a 2:1 ratio, although I have seen boats with a 4:1. It does mean you need a lot of oomph to get the main in quickly for a gybe - especially given the number of blocks the line has to go around. So you'll see a lot of racers simply grab the falls and haul the boom across by hand for a gybe.

Are you thinking of buying a boat with a German main.
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No. I was just curious after getting an email from X yachts. I didnt know whether it operated on the main sheet or the track and if the main sheet I didnt see the benefit. When hard on the wind and tacking I dont touch the sheet - I just haul the track car up to windward. When freeing off for a gust I drop the car down to leeward. Freeing off a bit moves the car until it reaches the end of the track because its the sheet that controls the sail shape ( yes I know about halyards etc) whereas the track governs angle of attack.

I still dont see the benefit compared to a decent track in front of the helm and a multi fall mainsheet
 
birdseye said:
....
I still dont see the benefit compared to a decent track in front of the helm and a multi fall mainsheet
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It allows the main to be worked by a multi-speed winch for one thing.
It seperates the in-out and up-down of the boom a bit like having a powerful vang and sheet hoop/bridle on a modern dinghy.
If you let the traveller down and the main is led to a winch on most other systems, the sheet gets tighter as the boom goes out, which is not what you want.
I believe the AC team that started the trend did well with it?
Doesn't mean boats with different rigs have any cause to copy it of course.
Probably only really come into its own on a boat with more crew than I care to buy beer for?
 
lw395 said:
If you let the traveller down and the main is led to a winch on most other systems, the sheet gets tighter as the boom goes out, which is not what you want.
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On my 35 ft boat I dont need a winch for the main sheet but then my rig is masthead rather than fractional with large main and self tacking jib.. But leaving that aside I dont understand the above comment. . Once you get to the end of the track , the kicker comes into its own and the mainsheet is released. to be used simply to control the angle of the boom to the centre line.

I'm missing something here.
 
If you lead your mainsheet to a winch from the traveller, if the traveller car moves away from the winch, that effectively pulls the sheet in a bit.
 
birdseye said:
No. I was just curious after getting an email from X yachts. I didnt know whether it operated on the main sheet or the track and if the main sheet I didnt see the benefit. When hard on the wind and tacking I dont touch the sheet - I just haul the track car up to windward. When freeing off for a gust I drop the car down to leeward. Freeing off a bit moves the car until it reaches the end of the track because its the sheet that controls the sail shape ( yes I know about halyards etc) whereas the track governs angle of attack.

I still dont see the benefit compared to a decent track in front of the helm and a multi fall mainsheet
Click to expand...

If you actively trim the main to the headsail tell tails you can steer the boat upwind without moving the rudder. As a technique it does benefit your windward performance. Less tiring doing it with a German system, but on a 35' boat it's not difficult with a conventional mainsheet system and fine-tuner.

The X34 is an IRC bandit by the way, but the X35 must certainly wasn't (both IMHO), so it does depend what X-Yachts are trying to sell you.
 
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