Generator remote start, what do you check/how is it done?

[vas]

good morning all,

having finished with the remote operation and soft start of my watermaker, and having a few relays still unused in my domotic system, I'm thinking of doing a remote start/stop of the generator as well and automate the whole process a bit better. This should be able to save the batteries if something silly happens and I'm low on charge as well.

Now, MASE generator is an oldish one with a 90ies panel which I use to:
Turn ON,
START
Turn OFF.

There are 3 microswitches that do the work and 6iirc warning lights plus the hours counter (approx 1000h now).
First one is sending a signal to turn the electrics ON (which means wake up the panel and get it ready for firing up) A few warning lights are on once you do that (low oil pressure et al).
THEN, you have to MANUALLY press a button until the yanmar 2gm20 decides to fire up. As long as you press the button, the starter turns.
Then everything is fine, thing spins up to 3K rpm (from stone cold, never realise why that's a good idea...) and simply works. Warning lights turn off, other indicator light turns on (that there's 220V output) and all's fine.

I can simulate the first step (turning on the thing), but how do I know how long the bloody starter should run? Or I stick the starter running until I get a signal from some other subsystem that the thing is working by itself? May burn the new starter v.quickly and it was 100odd euro... I guess other engines are smarter and know they are up, not this though.


Alternatively, I could be conservative:
Turn on,
fire up the starter for say 5 secs, then wait for half a min, check if there's output on the circuit, if there is, fine, if not loop again for 5 more secs. Do it trice, then give up and send a message that engine didn't start and turn on the third button for a second to stop current to the whole thing.

Would the above process be acceptable, or am I missing something, is there any other smart way of making sure this thing works?

cheers

V.

 

[rafiki_]

Vas, my remote is on the lower helm, therefore I can hear the starter. Normally mine fires straight away, unless it has been left for a few months, in which case I have to bleed the fuel. Very simple process on my Kohler. I assume you are trying to do something from the Fly, therefore unable to hear the starter? If you have a voltage gauge, you will see quickly if the genie is running, and you can attend to the starter timing? Sorry, not very helpful.

 

[vas]

P.,

probably not too clear myself, want to be able to automate the process of starting, ie. start in my absense due to low voltage, or an instruction to run some system that needs 220V.
I also regularly have to bleed it, and I think I've spotted a small leak, so going to attend to that soon. Then I hope it's going to start in the third/fourth turn of the crankshaft as it does when in daily use...

cheers

V.

 

[Portofino]

Somthing like this ?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-DSE702...roller-Board-Panel-FREE-SHIPMEN-/263439811095

Or this ?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/DC20D-Generator-Controller-Generator-Control-Module-/251987390832

You configure them

 

[BartW]

Alternatively, I could be conservative:
Turn on,
fire up the starter for say 5 secs, then wait for half a min, check if there's output on the circuit, if there is, fine, if not loop again for 5 more secs. Do it trice, then give up and send a message that engine didn't start and turn on the third button for a second to stop current to the whole thing.

Would the above process be acceptable, or am I missing something, is there any other smart way of making sure this thing works?

cheers

V.

I have made something similar to that,


at anker
(almost only used during the night)
1) before I go to bed, I have a switch to select "automatic start"
this switch also gives power to the starting cirquit

2) towards the morning,
the battery monitor gives a signal at 60% charge
relay contact to a timer, that engages start for 3 secs,
if the genny starts, the starting procedure will stop,
if not after 15 secs, there will be another start pulse,
it will do 3 start attemps, and then the procedure stops, no further consequence, nor alarm, etc..

I don't have any automatic stop, nor any more automation,
when the genny is running, I'm alway's onboard, and can see what is going on,
and have enought triggers to switch the genny off
I could make a additional battery monitor contact for a stop command at 98% fe
but I prefer todo that manually, (and switch off the automatic start button)
can all be automated ofcause, but like to keep things simple

 

[BartW]

Somthing like this ?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-DSE702...roller-Board-Panel-FREE-SHIPMEN-/263439811095

Or this ?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/DC20D-Generator-Controller-Generator-Control-Module-/251987390832

You configure them

this is amazing, what you can find on ebay !

 

[rafiki_]

P.,

probably not too clear myself, want to be able to automate the process of starting, ie. start in my absense due to low voltage, or an instruction to run some system that needs 220V.
I also regularly have to bleed it, and I think I've spotted a small leak, so going to attend to that soon. Then I hope it's going to start in the third/fourth turn of the crankshaft as it does when in daily use...

cheers

V.

Sorry Vas, got it now. Challenge of a quick read on the phone while on the train with a dodgy signal. Porto has found some interesting gear. Looks good.

 

[vas]

this is amazing, what you can find on ebay !

Sorry Vas, got it now. Challenge of a quick read on the phone while on the train with a dodgy signal. Porto has found some interesting gear. Looks good.

True, very interesting indeed, thanks Porto!
Problem is that I have to dismantle the old school panel I have, and figure out which cable does what... There are 6 or 7 tiny cables going into a loom and down to the generator, worried as the actual control panel has a PCB populated with all sorts of capacitors, resistors, relays, you name it. Wonder if it's an easy task to find the signals without any drawing, shall give it a go and if so get one.
Else if I find how to give power and then how to trigger the starter, I'll devise one myself on the domotic system based on Bart's approach.

cheers

V.

 

[Portofino]

True, very interesting indeed, thanks Porto!
Problem is that I have to dismantle the old school panel I have, and figure out which cable does what... There are 6 or 7 tiny cables going into a loom and down to the generator, worried as the actual control panel has a PCB populated with all sorts of capacitors, resistors, relays, you name it. Wonder if it's an easy task to find the signals without any drawing, shall give it a go and if so get one.
Else if I find how to give power and then how to trigger the starter, I'll devise one myself on the domotic system based on Bart's approach.

cheers

V.

Wiring Drawings RHS column + other literature

http://www.masenorthamerica.com/en/support/old-literature.html

 

[mcanderson]

Porto - brilliant link to the manuals. I have a Mase IS 5.0 and was looking for the servicing manual as the owners manual is useless. Now all sorted thanks to you.

 

[Portofino]

Porto - brilliant link to the manuals. I have a Mase IS 5.0 and was looking for the servicing manual as the owners manual is useless. Now all sorted thanks to you.

You welcome.
The belt is Citroen AX 1.0 - €4 from a Fr car spares shop and the water pump is a ubiquitous “ Johnson “ ,the impeller is €20 sold in every chandelier s .

 

[mcanderson]

I now know the prices of the alternatives having paid for a service kit! I should have asked here first.

 

[vas]

Porto - brilliant link to the manuals. I have a Mase IS 5.0 and was looking for the servicing manual as the owners manual is useless. Now all sorted thanks to you.

+1000

I've been trying to find out even which geny I have for a few years now...
Now I know I have an IS08!
But it also seems that I don't really have the right generator stuck on the back of the yanmar 2gm, need to print out the manual and go and have a good luck in the e/r.

Anyway, brilliant, thanks Porto!

V.

 

[bluesrocker22]

Dear Vas,
I just joined, so the system did not want to let me message you. I have a question for you:
I was wanting to set up an "auto start" system for my generator for hurricane (loss of power at dock) purposes. Did you ever get your generator "auto start" system up and running? I have cellular app "control" of the boat (3 Relays ON/OFF), but I do not think in a hurricane situation that will be very reliable. I was wanted to set up a voltage detector that would start my generator and kick in a battery charger only if my batt voltage drops to some pre-determined level. Any ideas appreciated. THANK YOU!

 

[bluesrocker22]

I did find the Magnum ME-AGS-S autostart system (WITH PREHEAT FUNCTION!). I have been reading reviews on it and some of them are not so great but overall it looks very promising. Seems to be able to be setup for several different start/stop/preheat types.

 

[vas]

hi, sorry for the late reply, saw it and then forgot it!
now, ended up designing my own start stop system, scrapping the stock diesel stop solenoid and adding a linear actuator on the governor so that I up and drop revs to the point of stopping the engine.
So now the logic is I hit a button on the dash (or send a message from home) and:
generator starts at 1800rpm
waits till coolant temp goes over 25C
then revs up slowly to 3000rpm
keep that with a controll loop checking constantly variations due to load

when I want to turn it off
drop slowly rpm to 1100
wait for EGT to drop to 125C
then push the governor all the way to stop engine (and immediately reset it for next start at 1800rpm)

Values are not cast in stone, what I found works reasonably well, so that it stays put for a couple of minutes unloaded before turning off, same for starting up.

I obvs have sensors for rpm, oil press, coolant temp, seawater pressure EGT and fuel pressure to do all that.
Not an easy exercise, but good way to spend lots of hours during the last two lockdowns

If you do get a box that can do autostart/stop, dont forget to have a system to check that water flows through to your exhaust and that you don't end up with a melted exhaust and eventually a burnt boat! Even more so, make sure that when on the hard said system is completely disabled!!!
Now to your actual question, voltage sensing is not that difficult using an arduino or a raspberry pi. So I'd expect that a system should have:
a controller to check not only voltage on board, but also exhaust temps (at least as per the previous comment)
a black box that does the start stop
some wiring between so you instruct the black box to start the generator when V is below set level, BUT you also instruct it to stop:
1. after fe 3h (then let it rest and when it's down again loop!)
2. exhaust temp is over alarm limit (some threads with simple exhaust alarms around last week, pick one that will be able to give a signal out - relay whatnot)

I think that's the general idea.

OTOH, if not done carefully and properly its potentially disasterous. Also not sure what your insurance policy says about generators running on their own accord...

cheers

V.

 

[vas]

coming to think of it, have a look at victron's kit gecko (or whatever it's called) or the open source raspberry pi version of their os. Raspberry then could do the whole work with a bit of programming and if there's wifi onboard or in the marina can give you realtime data + alerts on what's going onboard.

 

[bluesrocker22]

Thanks so much for all the great information.
My exhaust has a temperature sensor to shut the generator down on a hot exhaust, and I have a hot coolant shutoff (both of which will be checked before this thing is operational).
I ordered the "off the shelf" kit from Magnum, so I will post more once I get to testing it.
I HOPE to add custom Hall Effect flow sensors for coolant and seawater flow, but we will see.

When you change the RPM's on your generator, you are changing the frequency of the power generated yes? (I have heard this can do some bad things but I don't know).

I use BoatCommad.com for remote monitoring, warning, and control. What are you using?

 

[vas]

ok, good preventive measures both the exhaust and coolant shutoff, if they work fine, you're good to go.

I'd avoid hall effect flow sensors as they are either extremely cheap and useless, or too expensive! Dont you dare try the plastic fantastic 3euro 1/2in ones from China, have two of them too scared to use them on anything, practically toys they are!
I'd go for seawater coolant pressure instead, but tbh if you have the other two, it's probably an overkill.

mine is an old school 2pole generator withouth ATwhatever (forget now the initials, is it ATV?), completely simple, a largish capacitor and that's it. So YES, rpm affects both output V and Hz. Therefore I have bought a 20euro (or so) rail mounted device that only passes a ON signal when voltage is within a permited range (configurable with two pots). So have that get the gen out signal, and when values are right, triggers output that is wired to the input of a 2pole el. rollover relay from Schneider (another 30euro or so). So as long as the twin pot thing is out of range, relay is pointing at the shore power plug (which is never on, but that's another story). Once twin pot says yeah, relay switches to generator input and gets that to the boat 230V.

So basically, whilst I'm playing with rpm to heat up or cool the poor 2cyl yanmar, generator output is OFF!
IMHO, this is a cheap and cheerful way of doing this job without mucking about a lot.
hope it helps

cheers

V.

 

[bluesrocker22]

VAS,
You sir, are "a steely-eyed missile man" to borrow a phrase from the US Space program! You have really done your homework and done a really good job. I agree with you on the CHEAP hall effect flow sensors. It is ridiculous. My stuff is still on the way in the mail but I will post more later. My wiring diagram has (right now) included a "delay on make" timer and a contactor, so that my "outlet" for the battery charger will not come on until the 120VAC power has stabilized in frequency. MY ONLY USE FOR THIS THING RIGHT NOW is during a hurricane evacuation (Do you believe this to be wise?).

We live on the boat, so if we have to evacuate, I would open the seacock for the generator and turn on my "hurricane" switch (enable auto generator start). I will probably set my generator auto start voltage to 12.0 VDC.

As a side note, I have 3 (three) 8D batts on board (with a separate battery to start my generator), so I am also THINKING about another circuit that would also monitor the bilge pump battery. If it EVER sees a voltage of 11.7 VDC for over 30 seconds, it would kick on a solenoid that would parallel in my 3rd (backup) 8D battery and hopefully keep my bilge pumps running.