Generator quandary.

[john_morris_uk]

I’m not sure whether to post this hear on PBO or on Scuttlebutt or in Liveboard as I’m not sure who might have the inside knowledge on the quandary that I am facing. Anyway here goes in PPO and we’ll see how we get on.

We’ve more or less decided to buy a Whisperpower generator for our imminent blue water extended cruise. However the generators come in two sorts (both of the same generating capacity) One is set to its maximum speed at all times and the other has a control system that varies the speed of the generator according to demand. They are both fixed magnet generators driving an inverter. I’ve been told by one source (an opposition dealer!) that on a small generator like the one that we are buying the variable speed control is a waste of time. It’s an added complication and the generator in practice runs at full speed nearly all the time.
The advantage of the variable speed model is that it is theoretically more economical and on low loads it’s quieter. It is a few hundred pounds more and it’s an added complication to go wrong but I’m assured by the dealer that you can override the auto control and set it as if it’s a manual if that part of the circuitry ever fails. I’m really at a loss to know which way to go. Is there anyone with any experience of these generators and got any guidance that they might offer before I part with our hard earned?

 

[Rum_Pirate]

Is a wind generator being used to charge and top up battery bank? In the Caribbean/Tropics there is usually a reasonably supply of the power source.

Is a solar panel(s) being used to charge and top up battery bank? In the Caribbean/Tropics there is an abundance of the power source.

How often (number of days and hours per day) do you plan to use the Whispapower generator ?

Are parts easily accessible world wide, or are you going to be stuck in a particular port until a spare part arrives?

 

[Graham376]

I know nowt about Whispapower generators but our Honda has two settings, full power and demand power. The latter is nice and quiet when just charging batteries but runs at higher noisy revs on heavy loads. Full power all the time in quiet anchorage would be very annoying.

 

[geem]

It depends on how you expect to use the generator. Do you have other sources of power generation?
We only use our diesel generator to make water. Before we had a decent sized solar array we used to use the diesel generator a lot more. I'd you don't have much in the way of solar, wind or a towed generator then the chances are you will use your generator a lot. If it a small output type say less than 5 kVA you tend to fully load it. For example, turn on battery charger and immersion heater. If you are likely to do this then complicated electronics are a waste of time. In addition, they have a habit of failing.
Our own generator has only capacitor control with no AVC. Very little to go wrong. We have learnt over time how desirable reliability is over efficiency. A broken generator in a far flung place is worse than useless

 

[geem]

I know nowt about Whispapower generators but our Honda has two settings, full power and demand power. The latter is nice and quiet when just charging batteries but runs at higher noisy revs on heavy loads. Full power all the time in quiet anchorage would be very annoying.

Not if it's built into an acoustic box inside a yacht. You wouldn't know the difference

 

[Tradewinds]

Having had a FP4 generator (from new), I wouldn't bother having one. It was a blight on our cruising for the three years I had it (I gave it away in the end). Mechanics workshops were full of these compact yacht generators awaiting various forms of repair. I'm sure you think I'm exaggerating and out of touch with the latest stuff available. But, with cheap solar and lithium you don't really need one IMO.
If you do get one, good luck - welcome to the world of waiting for expensive spares in exotic harbours. You have been warned.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Having had a FP4 generator (from new), I wouldn't bother having one. It was a blight on our cruising for the three years I had it (I gave it away in the end). Mechanics workshops were full of these compact yacht generators awaiting various forms of repair. I'm sure you think I'm exaggerating and out of touch with the latest stuff available. But, with cheap solar and lithium you don't really need one IMO.
If you do get one, good luck - welcome to the world of waiting for expensive spares in exotic harbours. You have been warned.

FP generators have a foul reputation and that's one of the reasons we are not getting one! I agree about reliability of systems. I've had my fair share of waiting for parts in exotic places (plus paying the 'handling charge' in cash to the customs officer to get it released once it arrives...)

We have a Superwind generator and are adding solar, so I'm trying to have all options available. The power requirements of the boat are being optimised (all LED lights, water cooled condenser for the fridge/freezer etc) but making water will still be a big draw on power reserves. (I've promised Mrs M that she can wash her hair occasionally!) We don't have (or plan to have) a towed generator.

However a well installed generator with a water separator discharging water below the waterline and the cool gasses above can be extremely quiet.`. I've also cruised with a generator that gave no problems whatsoever and it was a pleasure to have 230volts on demand at any time for all sorts of reasons (power tools etc)

 

[Clancy Moped]

FP generators have a foul reputation and that's one of the reasons we are not getting one! I agree about reliability of systems. I've had my fair share of waiting for parts in exotic places (plus paying the 'handling charge' in cash to the customs officer to get it released once it arrives...)

We have a Superwind generator and are adding solar, so I'm trying to have all options available. The power requirements of the boat are being optimised (all LED lights, water cooled condenser for the fridge/freezer etc) but making water will still be a big draw on power reserves. (I've promised Mrs M that she can wash her hair occasionally!) We don't have (or plan to have) a towed generator.

However a well installed generator with a water separator discharging water below the waterline and the cool gasses above can be extremely quiet.`. I've also cruised with a generator that gave no problems whatsoever and it was a pleasure to have 230volts on demand at any time for all sorts of reasons (power tools etc)

I was swayed against a Whisper to a Kohler, to many sensors and access worked in our space.

 

[jwfrary]

What size of generator are you looking at?

If your looking at using it purely for battery charging perhaps you would be better served with a DC generator which can produce a lot more DC current than most battery chargers.

Variable speed generators are useful where the load varies on the system. Of course running the generator at low load is neither economical or effective.

In terms of complication the thing that's likely to give the most issues is the inverter, the engines are fairly robust to a point, but I don't think any of these micro generators are going to be particularly long lived!

If you want reliable and long lived go northern lights, but they are of course big and heavy so most yachts just can't accommodate it.

 

[geem]

FP generators have a foul reputation and that's one of the reasons we are not getting one! I agree about reliability of systems. I've had my fair share of waiting for parts in exotic places (plus paying the 'handling charge' in cash to the customs officer to get it released once it arrives...)

We have a Superwind generator and are adding solar, so I'm trying to have all options available. The power requirements of the boat are being optimised (all LED lights, water cooled condenser for the fridge/freezer etc) but making water will still be a big draw on power reserves. (I've promised Mrs M that she can wash her hair occasionally!) We don't have (or plan to have) a towed generator.

However a well installed generator with a water separator discharging water below the waterline and the cool gasses above can be extremely quiet.`. I've also cruised with a generator that gave no problems whatsoever and it was a pleasure to have 230volts on demand at any time for all sorts of reasons (power tools etc)

The burbling of water from our generator exhaust tells me all is well?. The Perkins generator engine is also reassuring.

 

[jwfrary]

To answer the changing from a variable to a fixed speed, it's just a different style of rack actuator, they are quite easy to change once you have figured out the part!

 

[geem]

What size of generator are you looking at?

If your looking at using it purely for battery charging perhaps you would be better served with a DC generator which can produce a lot more DC current than most battery chargers.

Variable speed generators are useful where the load varies on the system. Of course running the generator at low load is neither economical or effective.

In terms of complication the thing that's likely to give the most issues is the inverter, the engines are fairly robust to a point, but I don't think any of these micro generators are going to be particularly long lived!

If you want reliable and long lived go northern lights, but they are of course big and heavy so most yachts just can't accommodate it.

And they use Perkins 100 series engines?

 

[john_morris_uk]

What size of generator are you looking at?

If your looking at using it purely for battery charging perhaps you would be better served with a DC generator which can produce a lot more DC current than most battery chargers.

Variable speed generators are useful where the load varies on the system. Of course running the generator at low load is neither economical or effective.

In terms of complication the thing that's likely to give the most issues is the inverter, the engines are fairly robust to a point, but I don't think any of these micro generators are going to be particularly long lived!

If you want reliable and long lived go northern lights, but they are of course big and heavy so most yachts just can't accommodate it.

It will be used for battery charging, water making, immersion heater, and running the occasional mains powered device such as a hair dryer. Obviously not all at the same time...

 

[jwfrary]

It will be used for battery charging, water making, immersion heater, and running the occasional mains powered device such as a hair dryer. Obviously not all at the same time...

OK, so fairly modest needs. They could likely be met with an large inverter, solar and a large alternator on your main engine. Have you looked at the integral system from triskell marine? It's quite expensive and involved (so is fitting a generator properly!) but does offer plenty of advantages lest of all its relitivly simple to understand how it works and therefore fix it!

On the generator itself i'm just guessing here your looking at the piccolo 5 which is pretty small at 88kg, a 1500 rpm set like the northern lights 4.5kw is twice that ams the smallest 1500rpm set in know of. Having said that by design there's nothing but switches and some normal 12v relays in it, so Infinatly more fixable and robust than any PMG unit which by necessity is quite complex, that's why builders like nord haven fit them.

Lifetime of a 1500 rpm unit is in excess of 10000 hrs. A 3000 rpm unit is maybe circa 2k, and many FP owners will attest to this. 1500rpm sets are far quieter as well.

I poked around the new whisper the other day and it's better quality than the previous gen, however no anode in the Heat exchanger still though, dealer said it last ls 5 years then chuck it.

As for the rest of it, 8 can't see it being long lived, base engine is a yanmar, but the head is different which I expect would be an issue later on if it comes to parts....

I wouldn't go for the small Onan gen as it has a strange belt drive arangment which isn't that durable

As a last note, seems any generators quite thin on the ground right now supply wise so this may all be academic and you will end up with whatever you can source!

 

[john_morris_uk]

I’ve looked at the Kohler but jibbed at paying double the price for a 5kw generator from Whisper. I too have been impressed with the quality of the Whisperpower but I’m slightly wary of the complexity. However if the Invertor is well designed and built the MTB of modern components can be many thousands of hours. I guess it’s just a matter of pay your money and make your choice.

 

[Bran]

Following this with interest as I am nursing an old FP generator, not sure if I want to invest any more time or money into it.
I have a 4.5kVA generator and regularly use up to 16A when cooking and heating water so I want to maintain that power level.
I like the look of the whisper generators but the power outputs of the smaller units are below what I want.
I won’t go for another FP generator for the reasons mentioned above.
I like the Paguro 4sy but am unsure of its long term reliability although it does have a yanmar engine.
Not keen on the variable speed inverter system as I also think they will be running flat out to achieve the power required.
A 1500 rpm Northern lights looks good but would be a challenge to fit in the space.
As we are going to be UK based a small Beta set could be good but we have the same issues as with Northern lights generator.
It is indeed a quandary!

 

[[2574]]

Following this with interest as I am nursing an old FP generator, not sure if I want to invest any more time or money into it.
I have a 4.5kVA generator and regularly use up to 16A when cooking and heating water so I want to maintain that power level.
I like the look of the whisper generators but the power outputs of the smaller units are below what I want.
I won’t go for another FP generator for the reasons mentioned above.
I like the Paguro 4sy but am unsure of its long term reliability although it does have a yanmar engine.
Not keen on the variable speed inverter system as I also think they will be running flat out to achieve the power required.
A 1500 rpm Northern lights looks good but would be a challenge to fit in the space.
As we are going to be UK based a small Beta set could be good but we have the same issues as with Northern lights generator.
It is indeed a quandary!

We have a 4kva Paguro genny which I reckon produces 3.5kw happily, I don’t push it beyond that. But allied to that we have a Victron Multi 3kw/120A charger inverter. Using PoweAssist we can happily draw a peak load of 6kw if necessary, the Power Assist functionality limits the load drawn from the genny and blends in inverted 240v from the battery bank for the balance of demand. Can‘t do that for long of course but no problem sticking the kettle on whilst everything else is drawing full capacity from the genny.

 

[Alex_Blackwood]

I’m not sure whether to post this hear on PBO or on Scuttlebutt or in Liveboard as I’m not sure who might have the inside knowledge on the quandary that I am facing. Anyway here goes in PPO and we’ll see how we get on.

We’ve more or less decided to buy a Whisperpower generator for our imminent blue water extended cruise. However the generators come in two sorts (both of the same generating capacity) One is set to its maximum speed at all times and the other has a control system that varies the speed of the generator according to demand. They are both fixed magnet generators driving an inverter. I’ve been told by one source (an opposition dealer!) that on a small generator like the one that we are buying the variable speed control is a waste of time. It’s an added complication and the generator in practice runs at full speed nearly all the time.
The advantage of the variable speed model is that it is theoretically more economical and on low loads it’s quieter. It is a few hundred pounds more and it’s an added complication to go wrong but I’m assured by the dealer that you can override the auto control and set it as if it’s a manual if that part of the circuitry ever fails. I’m really at a loss to know which way to go. Is there anyone with any experience of these generators and got any guidance that they might offer before I part with our hard earned?

Don't know much about these generators but I would assume that if an engine is running at "R" RPM at "X" load it will use "Y" fuel. If the load increases to "XX" it will require "YY" fuel to maintain "R" So variable sped may be a bit of a gimmick?

 

[geem]

OK, so fairly modest needs. They could likely be met with an large inverter, solar and a large alternator on your main engine. Have you looked at the integral system from triskell marine? It's quite expensive and involved (so is fitting a generator properly!) but does offer plenty of advantages lest of all its relitivly simple to understand how it works and therefore fix it!

On the generator itself i'm just guessing here your looking at the piccolo 5 which is pretty small at 88kg, a 1500 rpm set like the northern lights 4.5kw is twice that ams the smallest 1500rpm set in know of. Having said that by design there's nothing but switches and some normal 12v relays in it, so Infinatly more fixable and robust than any PMG unit which by necessity is quite complex, that's why builders like nord haven fit them.

Lifetime of a 1500 rpm unit is in excess of 10000 hrs. A 3000 rpm unit is maybe circa 2k, and many FP owners will attest to this. 1500rpm sets are far quieter as well.

I poked around the new whisper the other day and it's better quality than the previous gen, however no anode in the Heat exchanger still though, dealer said it last ls 5 years then chuck it.

As for the rest of it, 8 can't see it being long lived, base engine is a yanmar, but the head is different which I expect would be an issue later on if it comes to parts....

I wouldn't go for the small Onan gen as it has a strange belt drive arangment which isn't that durable

As a last note, seems any generators quite thin on the ground right now supply wise so this may all be academic and you will end up with whatever you can source!

Not all 3000rpm sets are the same. My Perkins 102-05 twin cylinder unit is a nominal 10hp 3000rpm unit. They were used by the military as small industrial engines and also in refrigerated trucks. It's the same basic engine as used in Northern Lights generators but they use the three cylinder version at 1500rpm.
We use it for less than 100hrs a season mainly because it only gets used to make water. 15 to 20 mins per day is all it takes.
The original generator engine was 20 years old when it dropped a valve. I sourced a secondhand engine that had only done 63hrs and stripped the old engine for parts. The generator developed an electrical fault at the beginning of this year that turned out to be failed varistors. That was fixed for a couple of hundred quid. The current engine is 27 years old according to the serial number. Running nicely every day. No electronics just simple capacitor controlled voltage.

 

[Blueboatman]

Left field
One of the quietest generator set ups can be the faithful 1kwHonda suitcase plonked onto the rubber floor of the dinghy ..
cheap enough , easy to sell on..
across an anchorage you can hear tappit like noises but that’s it . Proven tech, great when you need to fix something on deck or when aground ( no cooling water ) or on the beach. ( etc etc )