Gas Safety

[tome]

Re: GAS SAFETY.

I think the plumber told me to always assume leakage from burners, not that the new one's would necessarily be leaking. I installed the new cooker myself and therefore haven't had a soundness test, maybe I should arrange this for peace of mind.

The old cooker was knackered and only fitted with flame failure on the oven. It often went out on low flame settings, so there must have been a fair amount of leakage.

Next on my list is the Palermo gas water heater which I don't use as I've no idea when it was last serviced. It's low down in a locker in the heads with very little air circulation, although it has an outlet vent to the deck in the cockpit. Plumber suggested adding louvres to the door and having it cleaned and serviced...

 

[Twister_Ken]

How many boats explode?

I know we all take gas dangers seriously. but just out of curiousity, how many gas-related boat explosions are there in the course of a year?

Also, for those of us with deep bilges (I can't reach the bottom of mine, when lying flat on my face) is it feasible/sensible to mount a gas detector on a string, so that it can be lowered into the bilge as a check before lighting up?

 

[Gordonmc]

Re: GAS SAFETY.

Good advice, so I hope you don't mind a supplementary.

Anything heavier than air will end up in the bilges on my traditional wood boat. The cockpit is not self draining. Aware of this I was keen to move the 13Kg bottle from the forepeak where it lodged when I re-plumbed the system. The only place I can put it is in front of the coachhouse, outside.

So I built a well ventilated locker from brass and magohany, which looks the part, and swapped the 13Kg for two smaller Gaz bottles. Plumbing goes through the for'ard bulkhead. Here is the rub. Every time I use the cooker it means going outside and forward to turn off/on.

What advice on fitting a second tap on the low pressure side of the reg. inside the cabin?

I will go with best advice.

 

[tome]

Re: How many boats explode?

Don't know how many boat explosions there are, but the thought of it scares me for one. Did you see the boat in Newhaven which went up (YM this month)?

Your idea of a detector on string sounds ok, although the earlier post about having it at the end of a tube leading to the bottom of the bilges with a suction device to draw the bilge air up to the detector sounds better.

Looks like there's a product-in-waiting here!

 

[Rob_Webb]

Insurance?

Incognito

I admire your tennacity in the face of criticsim and if you honestly believe there is a safe way of conducting this practice of naked-flame-gas-removal then you are a braver man then me.......carry on.

But for Christ's sake, just make sure you are anchored alone in a remote spot and not moored alongside me or any other potential vicitm.

And having formerly worked in insurance, I can tell you that if a claim ever arose by you (or an injured third party) because something went wrong whilst you performed this practice, your insurer would take a very dim view of things.

Rob.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Re: GAS SAFETY.

My set-up has a solenoid switch closing the gas line very close to the bottle. If you installed one of these, inside your locker, then you could turn supply on and off electronically without going forward, leaving you to 'do' the tap at the beginning and end of the day or trip.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Two birds, one stone

Flame testing for gas seems a splendid way of making more berths available, and improving the gene pool at the same time

 

[tome]

Re: Two birds, one stone

Very good!

 

[Rob_Webb]

Re: Two birds, one stone

I see a candidate for next year's Darwinian awards emerging!

 

[Chris_Robb]

Re: GAS SAFETY.

If the locker at the front of the coach roof regularly gets doused with sea water, the selanoid is not going to work for long. I use a similar set up to you and its great, as I have no flame outs on either the cooker or oven.

Do you know whether it is possible to retro fit flame outs? I have an unusual set up in that the oven is a separate unit made by Radford. I cannot find any one who makes this format now, and to change the setup would involve major surgery to a top quality piece of teak joinery.

 

[pugwash]

An old codger\'s solution

When in doubt about your gas seals and your nose, try this. Fill a bottle with water. With your thumb over the top, hold it as low as possible in the bilges and let the water run out, thus sucking in any gas that might be lying around. Take it into the open air, hold it away from face and combustbles, and light the top.

I've never tried it but I'm sure it would work. What do our Corgi men think?

 

[yachtcharisma]

Re: A little unfair...

I'm a little hesitant to leap to someone's defence on a subject at which I'm certainly no expert, but it does seem to me that incognito has been rather misunderstood and is making a very fair point.

He said FIRST check for a leak with gas detector / nose. If those tests are negative, most people would assume there's no leak and go on to light matches without worrying. However, he is, if I've understood him correctly, being even more cautious than that, and saying that if despite these negative tests there is still a tiny, undetectable, amount of gas around then a safe way to get rid of it is THEN to light a match at bilge level, thus burning off any gas molecules that are hanging around, and so preventing the gradual accumulation of a more significant quantity of gas over time.

That seems to me to be a sensible point. My only reservation with it would be that I'd have thought you'll only destroy any gas which is local to the flame - you'd really need to move the flame all around the bilges to thoroughly "cleanse" them. Maybe easier on a boat with a deep, narrow bilge rather than a broad flat one.

However, I cook with meths and don't have any gas on board, so as I say I certainly wouldn't consider myself an expert...

Cheers
Patrick

==================
Sailing a Corribee
vzone.virgin.net/patrick.fox
==================

 

[steveh]

If every time you light the gas - nevers lights first go when boats jumping around - does the leaked gas accumalate in the bilges slowly increasing in volumne ??

 

[tcm]

yes, the unburnt gas falls to the bilge.

Those not keen on flaming gas off can physically bail out the gas (i'm not kidding) with a bucket, but you do look a bit of a twit whilst doing so.

 

[Rob_Webb]

Re: A little unfair...

Patrick

Your desire to defend incognito in the spirit of fair play is laudible and it certainly isn't my intention to firebomb the chap simply because he mentioned the words gas and match in the same sentence. I just think that his advice is somewhat misguided for the following reasons.

Yes, I agree that if you follow his argument to the letter, you can understand what he is trying to achieve. And he might be able to achieve this himself without incident, and I wish him luck.

But I think the general objection being raised is that it is an unnecessarily dangerous road to be going down for two reasons:

1. If you fail to detect any gas in the bilges using a gas detector and a healthy human nose, then it is fair to assume you have no dangerous build up. So why then start playing with matches? If you believe a gradual build up is occurring and it isn't being flushed away by the natural drafts blowing around the boat in regular use, then won't your detector/nose checking reveal the problem eventually - and well before it reaches a dangerous level?

2. Can you imagine if someone read incognito's first thread.....

"When arriving at the boat, put a Wickes' smoke detector to the lowest part of the bilge, and if no alarm, light a match to burn off any collected gas. Even if the alarm doesn't detect it, you can be sure that there is nothing there after the lit match."

.... and then tried this out the next time they were on their boat resulting in.....BA-BOOM. How dreadful would incognito feel that his questionable advice led to tragedy?

And how bad would the rest of us feel who disagreed with his original advice and failed to point it out.

I am a great believer in the forum as a place to offer and find diverse (and even opposing) opinions on any subject. That's what makes it interesting. But in this case, I feel that the dangerous nature of this discussion warrants the robust criticism it has received.

Regards
Rob.

 

[yachtcharisma]

Re: A little unfair...

"I am a great believer in the forum as a place to offer and find diverse (and even opposing) opinions on any subject."

Oh, I entirely agree, and I wasn't intending to criticise the criticisers, so to speak, simply suggest that there was an interesting point here about how to get rid of quantities of gas too tiny to be either dangerous or detectable before they build up into something which is.

I have to say I think I'd be happy to rely on Brownian motion and general airflow through the boat to deal with such small quantities myself, and that seems to work - I would assume all gas installations occasionally leak a bit, eg between the flame getting blown out and the flame detector cutting off the supply, and this never seems to cause people problems. But I thought using a flame seemed a clever idea, albeit open to potentially dangerous misunderstanding as some of the responses proved!

Cheers
Patrick

==================
Sailing a Corribee
vzone.virgin.net/patrick.fox
==================

 

[sailbadthesinner]

I have done this
and can fully testify that i got some very strange looks.
especially as I gingerley carried an empty bucket up and then threw the contents over the side.


Wants woman with boat
Send photo of boat

 

[Rob_Webb]

Re: A little unfair...

Patrick

I agree, and that's the natural approach I would prefer to use!

But I think that the crux of the problem with incognito's advice wasn't just that it was:

"open to potentially dangerous misunderstanding....."

but that it WAS dangerous. This is because if you look at his original posting carefully.....


"When arriving at the boat, put a Wickes' smoke detector to the lowest part of the bilge, and if no alarm, light a match to burn off any collected gas. Even if the alarm doesn't detect it, you can be sure that there is nothing there after the lit match."


..... it goes straight from checking with a detector to lighting a flame - it makes no mention of the nose check. So what if the detector was faulty (quite common apparently)? THAT is the problem with the advice that could lead to disaster.

Regards
Rob

 

[Twister_Ken]

Re: A little unfair...

And he was suggesting a smoke detector, not a gas detector

 

[Twister_Ken]

Pumping out gas

Seems that most boats have got an ideal gas pump aboard (or maybe not - I'm not going to be the first to experiment).

Put a hose on the engine air inlet and drop hose into bilge. Start engine. Gas, if any, will be hauled up into cylinders and burn off along with a spray of diesel in the only part of the boat designed to burn explosive mixtures safely. 5 minutes of engine ought to draw a lot of gas/air out of the bilge.

Ot am I being totally daft?