Gaff schooner sunk in Brixham

[Rappey]

You're assuming the boat in question was built with a fine multi layer mesh, or was it a bit of chicken wire and an old chain link fence.

? I'm assuming a boat is built using acknowledged tried and tested methods.
If it was not then it's amazing the thing survived the journey to the water in the first place and more amazing that the builder would think that method of construction was OK.
If it were constructed from chain link fencing then it wasn't built as a seagoing vessel in the first place.

Basically just a skim

A skim is what you do to a surface already plastered. a skim is carried out by one coat, allowing it to set a little then adding the second coat.
DownWest has nicely stated how it is done,
Wansworth is yet another example of sounding like someone that does not actually know how one is constructed but has learnt a lot from someone he knows

 

[Wansworth]

Sort of...
Friend built a 34ft gaff ketch. Spent a long time getting the armature fair, then called in a pro team to plaster it as it has to be done in one go. The mix also has to be right and that means less water than you might think, so not thin enough to easily get into the matrix. Lot of poking and pushing to ensure no voids. After it is done, then it has to be kept damp for the cure. That means weeks.
His hull looked like GRP and was about 20mm thick, more near the keel.
Pretty boat and sailed well.

Somewhere I have a book all about it,also knew a fellow that stapled reinforced mesh over an old wooden Hull,sailed all over the place........had a nice wooden interior?

 

[DownWest]

Somewhere I have a book all about it,also knew a fellow that stapled reinforced mesh over an old wooden Hull,sailed all over the place........had a nice wooden interior?

Not an unkown method of giving a commercial fishing boat a few years more in the US.

 

[Rappey]

But at a huge weight cost adding a ferro coat to a wooden boat.
A properly built ferro boat is actually lighter than the same sized steel boat.
Yes there are lots of ferro disasters.. forums generally chat about failures, breakdowns etc.
The boat in question has a shed on top. Generally would assume that points to the build quality of the rest of the boat.
The well built ones are very hard to spot and 9/10 people think they are grp.

 

[Rappey]

Two others on this thread have effectively stated there is no place in this world for ferro boats . Seems everyone is an expert.
Let's build some boat hulls and put them in the water.
We can have steel, grp, plywood, wood, aluminium and ferro cement.
I can guarantee after 100 years the ferro will be still afloat, the others will have rotted away.
Ferro is not the sand and cement used to put bricks together as that's porous to a degree which would be fatal to a ferro boat.
What the vast majority don't hear about are the properly built ones that have been straffed off Syria by machine gun which did make a mess but the occupants were safe inside as non of the bullets penetrated the hull, or the one bouncing about on a reef - for a few years yet still fairly intact , or the ones that have have a very hard grounding but when towed off had no damage other than a little chipping of the ferro in the area of impact, or all the others that are still sailing happily around the world .
Look at all the concrete barges still afloat, and they are not as refined as a newer ferro cement built boat, or the hastily thrown together ww2 ferro liberty ships that only needed to last a few years yet are still in one piece some 75 years later.
Even a lecturer at Warsash nautical college many years ago that had more letters after his name than you could shake a stick at wrote words to the effect that a properly built ferro hull has to be the most superior hull material available, as it lasts longer and can be stronger than anything else. Look at how huge areas of steel get ripped off ships in severe storms, certainly won't happen to a ferro hull.
But everything above is based on one that is properly made and due to all the Internet experts and the diy disasters everyone chooses to believe they have nothing going for them.

 

[Wansworth]

The famous east coast yachting cartoonist had a series of ferro cement boats designed by Alan Hill

 

[Rappey]

This is a 38 year old hartley. Probably not even half way through its usefull life yet.
It is heavy but also carries a huge mast and sail area and has no problem overtaking many larger boats in light winds beating.

 

[Lucky Duck]

This is a 38 year old hartley. Probably not even half way through its usefull life yet.
It is heavy but also carries a huge mast and sail area and has no problem overtaking many larger boats in light winds beating.

A long time ago my then other half's dad used to sell the plans for those boats

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

The famous east coast yachting cartoonist had a series of ferro cement boats designed by Alan Hill

Mike Peyton and his succession of '*****stones'.

 

[Bajansailor]

Oh dear. I seem to have stirred up a hornet's nest here.

Edit re Rappey's comment -
"So why has he repeatedly mentioned gaps between the steel ?
The biggest gap ferro would bridge without any steel would be mms"

If the steel is not continuous (such as a steel plate) then there will be gaps in the mesh that are filled with cement. Yes, the 'gaps' are only mm's in width, but if cement is knocked out of them by whatever means, then you can end up with a hole or holes in the hull.

Re the boat 'El Lobo' that I mentioned which was holed by a jetski bow, I saw a photograph of the hole - it was most definitely holed.
If it had not been above the waterline, water would have got in. Maybe the steel inside was corroded / in poor condition and fractured as a result of the impact?

I am not against ferro boats - I crewed on a ferro Colin Archer from Southampton to Lisbon 30 years ago, and she was (still is) a lovely ship.
And I was simply reporting on facts re the ferro boat and the plywood boat that both came ashore here on the same beach in the same weather conditions.

I helped repair the Colin Archer here about 20 years ago - they had been to the Caribbean (following my passage to Lisbon) and then returned to Norway, and then sailed out here again some years later. This was on top of a trip around the world in the late 70's / early 80's with the same owners.
Re the repairs required, she had various small cracks in the topsides that had to be chipped / ground out and fixed - and I was surprised by how easy it was to chip away the cement - but they were fixed easily, and they subsequently sailed her back to Norway. She is now about 45 years old and still going strong in Norway with new owners.

To reiterate, I am not against properly constructed ferro boats - but if I had to choose between a ferro yacht and a fibreglass yacht, of similar size and type, I would most probably go for the fibreglass yacht.
As Rappey says, the main problem is the many poorly built boats which give the good ones a bad name.

 

[NormanS]

The Cretetree, a concrete ship/barge built in 1919, is still in use as a jetty in Scalpay, Harris.

 

[Rappey]

Foulkes and sons chandlery which im sure many south coast sailors know is a ww2 concrete barge..
Here is a rather good history of ferro ships and their part in the war.
The Concrete Fleet of WWII - Warfare History Network

 

[Rappey]

it was most definitely holed.

I accidently sailed into the back of an older heavily built grp yacht in a laser dingy a long time ago. It punched a hole clean through the transon of the yacht yet the dingy had no apparent damage so i dont dispute a jetski at speed could also punch a hole in the hull..
It does seem different brands use different mixes and materials to plaster the boat with.. I found a masonary drill just walked about on the surface of a ferro boat and a chisel didnt have much of an impact.
A diamond core bit was the only thing that could succesfully make a hole and that was slow progress.. The amount of steel in the plug i cut out was remarkable.
A one to one mix of sulphate resisting cement and very fine, lime free washed sand, water cured over 3 months makes for a hull as hard as granite with a claimed impact strength of 19,000 pounds per square inch.

 

[Bajansailor]

I agree that fibreglass yachts are not immune from jet-skis either - in fact jet-skis seem to have a particular affinity for crashing into them here (along with crashing into each other - there seems to be some sort of magnetic attraction between them).

I had a survey job here a few years ago on a visiting (from the UK) Prout Snowgoose 37 GRP catamaran. They had only arrived from the Canaries the day before. A jet-ski t-boned her at speed amidships. In their defence, the jet-ski driver said 'I didn't see it!'
Luckily for the jet ski driver, the point of impact was midway between a frame and a bulkhead, so the hull panel deflected and fractured, allowing the jet-ski to decelerate a bit more slowly than if it had come to an immediate stop (and it would have stopped immediately if it had hit the hull in way of a bulkhead).
It created an impressive hole in the topsides!
And if the jet-ski had stopped immediately, the driver would have probably sailed over the handlebars, head first, with a good chance of breaking his neck when his head made contact with something solid.

 

[Ian h]

This was taken September 2020 and looked in very sorry state then

 

[HissyFit]

My point is that elevating cement to higher production complexities obviates its cheap-n-cheerful characteristic which was, for a time, its primary interest to DIY enthusiasts.

For the big commercial players to take it up, they would need to see it outperforming GRP, Carbon, etc., both in terms of structural characteristics and price.

Anecdotally, I can see no sign of this whatsoever. Unless I'm mistaken?

If you re-read my first post, you will see that it was predicated on the envisaged production expansion and resultant cost fall of flash graphene. I fully understand that it is currently expensive, and am well aware that, like many technological innovations, it might not come to fruition.

 

[Rappey]

Jetskis often appear to rampage across the water regardless of whats in their way. the solo ones are worse than a group as the group can collide with each other... but the solitary one needs to find a target, in this case it was the isle of wight red funnel ferry also traveling at speed and the jetski just ploughed into the side of it.. Needless to say it lost against the larger steel ship.
there is a video but i cant find it..

Re. Ian h posted pic.. Poor Sea Beast, looks like its been through a war zone as has some chunks taken out of its transom, but the hull looks fairly rust free..

 

[Ian h]

Jetskis often appear to rampage across the water regardless of whats in their way. the solo ones are worse than a group as the group can collide with each other... but the solitary one needs to find a target, in this case it was the isle of wight red funnel ferry also traveling at speed and the jetski just ploughed into the side of it.. Needless to say it lost against the larger steel ship.
there is a video but i cant find it..

Re. Ian h posted pic.. Poor Sea Beast, looks like its been through a war zone as has some chunks taken out of its transom, but the hull looks fairly rust free..

not find video but here's the story with photo's
Man on jet ski ploughs into ferry off Southampton

'Oh No!' What the Jet Skier said just before hitting the Red Jet (photos)

 

[trevbouy]

I've just had an email from the Harbour Master to say the boat will be removed this week, that's why the pontoon has been moved.

Low tide this morning exposed the superstructure.

 

[pvb]

Re the boat 'El Lobo' that I mentioned which was holed by a jetski bow, I saw a photograph of the hole - it was most definitely holed.
If it had not been above the waterline, water would have got in. Maybe the steel inside was corroded / in poor condition and fractured as a result of the impact?

The photo seems to have disappeared from the internet now, but there's still trace of Mike & Pat's blog, which described the incident. "El Lobo" was built in 1971, a 38ft ferro boat weighing 11.5 tons. Their blog entry reads...

"We reached Store Bay on the morning of Wednesday 8th April and were immediately greeted by dozens of jet skis racing about the bay, also several glass bottomed boats with loud rap music playing as they passed us going up to Buccoo Reef and Lagoon, local beauty spots. The reef is quite degraded but still has good areas of coral and fishes and is popular with locals and visitors alike. The ‘tourist’ beach is noisy but just a step away is a lovely small beach complete with Bago’s beach bar, a very friendly place. There is also the Coco Reef hotel with it’s private beach and swimming area we were able to use.

We were just saying that the racing jet skis were ‘accidents waiting to happen,’ then when we were ashore on Easter Saturday, we were alarmed to learn from some new Australian friends, Dan and Yolanda from yacht Jacana, that one of them had indeed hit a boat - El Lobo! We immediately rushed back to the boat and found a 400 by 200 mil sized hole in our port side, just above the waterline! We went ashore and confronted the owner of the jet ski and the rider who had hired it, who had been on a jet ski for the first time in his life. He had apparently just thrown his girlfriend off and she had insisted on him taking her ashore but he would go back and do another circuit, showing off to her we imagine! The owner insisted that the rider was responsible for any ‘mishaps’ as he put it, and had no insurance. The skis are not even licensed. Apparently you can just buy one and start hiring it out!

Mike went up to the Police station to report the incident. In the meantime both owner and rider scarpered. the Police desultorily took details then said it was not a Police matter!! Luckily, the life guards had seen the accident happen and had full details of the incident and Mike spoke to the Head Lifeguard for the whole island who said this was an accelerating problem. He rang the Police himself and they finally took some interest and came out to photograph the damage. The trauma of the whole incident upset us for a few days even though Mike managed to patch the hole up temporarily so we could get to Trinidad where we are hauling out. We have informed the TT Tourist Board and one of the local papers but have heard nothing back!

It was such a shame because that area around Pigeon Point is justly famous as a beauty spot and it is going to be ruined by these dammed machines. Anyway, El Lobo has survived yet another ordeal and we have moved on."