Furling Genoa - Any Point in having a Storm Jib?

[Jaguar 25]

I may be missing some finer point(s) but.....

If you have a furling genoa is there any point in having a storm jib or any other jib for normal coastal cruising when you can adjust the genoa to any size required?

 

[capnsensible]

I must say that after a fair bit of sailing, Ive never had to use one for real. I do however, find it very comforting to know Ive got one on board in the event that the furling headsail rips. Which I have experienced on a few well used yachts.

 

[webcraft]

I may be missing some finer point(s) but.....

If you have a furling genoa is there any point in having a storm jib or any other jib for normal coastal cruising when you can adjust the genoa to any size required?

Most furling genoas resemble a bag when furled to storm jib size. They also place the centre of effort too high up the forestay. In genuine storm conditions they will tend to flog badly on any point of sail with the wind forward of the beam, to the extent that the forestay could be at risk. It will be useless if you have to beat hard to windward eg off a lee shore). Having a newish well-cut sail with a foam luff and tightening the forestay right up helps to some extent.

Having said that, we have cruised extensively with no storm jib. My preference would be for a detachable inner forestay that could take a storm jib, but lack of funds/competence has prevented us installing one to date.

- W

 

[Talulah]

Most furling genoas resemble a bag when furled to storm jib size. They also place the centre of effort too high up the forestay. In genuine storm conditions they will tend to flog badly on any point of sail with the wind forward of the beam, to the extent that the forestay could be at risk. It will be useless if you have to beat hard to windward eg off a lee shore). Having a newish well-cut sail with a foam luff and tightening the forestay right up helps to some extent.

Agreed. We have a storm jib that is fitted to a removable inner forestay.
In practice I have found a heavy weather jib more useful. The downside is you have to drop the Genoa but providing you do it before the onset of strong winds it's not a problem. The heavy weather jib needs a strop between the head of the sail and the upper furling swivel. This means you can still furl away the heavy weather jib.

 

[webcraft]

Agreed. We have a storm jib that is fitted to a removable inner forestay.
In practice I have found a heavy weather jib more useful. The downside is you have to drop the Genoa but providing you do it before the onset of strong winds it's not a problem. The heavy weather jib needs a strop between the head of the sail and the upper furling swivel. This means you can still furl away the heavy weather jib.

Agreed (gosh, what an agreeable post) . . .

I have often sailed a Sigma33 with just such an arrangement and have been ab el to make progress to windward in F7-8 comfortably with half of that furled away. It does however require a bit of forethought, as having to unfurl the whole genoa to drop it when the wind is already such that you want to roll it away further is difficult.

- W

 

[capnsensible]

It may be worth pointing out that storm sails should be set well up from the deck so that breaking waves dont trash yer boat.

 

[tcm]

agree with webby who alludes to the fact that if you need a storm jib then erm the idea of ooh i know - let's unfurl and drop the genoa! ..is not attractive as stormish conditions approach.

So agreed, forget storm jib. I sailed all over the place with no storm jib. Best thing is find out where the Pardeys are and don't go there cos they always seem to kop it

 

[Porthandbuoy]

Just showing a storm-jib sized bit of a 130% genoa will be useless unless your off the wind. Try going to windward and you'll just lean over and be blown to leeward. A storm jib will be made of much stouter stuff and be cut flat for strong winds (obviously) and for pointing ability.
Ladybird has a detachable inner stay and on the rare occasion I've used the storm jib it has made life a lot more comfortable and safer.

 

[Sybarite]

It may be worth pointing out that storm sails should be set well up from the deck so that breaking waves dont trash yer boat.

I have a removeable forestay for a storm jib (which I have only used in anger once) but I was thinking about getting a solent blade jib for heavy weather upwind stuff which could then be reefed (up from the bottom) to storm jib size. Would it work?

 

[capnsensible]

Mmm, many tides ago I did sail a boat with the ability to reef a headsail like that. Dont think it was ever popular and was not a loada laughs to do on a pitching pointy bit. In
times now thankfully long gone, I was often invited to go and change headsails before we were blessed with roller furling. How I dont miss those days of cold seawater rushing up the inside of my foulies from the boot end and exiting out the top round my neck!

I do have storm jibs on both my yachts, detatchable forestays. Have so far not had the need to set them for real, always managed with furler.

 

[BruceDanforth]

There are storm jibs that will go up over the top of a furling genoa running on loops with beads on them. I've not used one personally though but they look like they might work well. A storm jib was certainly worth having when I was in a force 11.

 

[prv]

agree with webby who alludes to the fact that if you need a storm jib then erm the idea of ooh i know - let's unfurl and drop the genoa! ..is not attractive as stormish conditions approach. So agreed, forget storm jib.

Webby wasn't talking about a storm jib, though, but a smaller roller jib which you swap to as soon as it looks like a given passage is going to be a windy one. Doesn't have to be a full on gale, and ideally you'd be doing this in port before you even set out. The small jib would be somewhere between "one reef" and "two reefs" on the normal genoa (ie, the points you roll to to match that much mainsail). So instead of setting out with two reefs in the headsail and not much scope to wind it in further, you go out with a whole sail sized to the conditions, and can make it even smaller (possibly approaching storm jib sized) if required, without turning it into a bag. The concept rather appeals to me, though I don't have one. Since the new boat is fractional rigged with a new foam-luffed genoa, I decided to see how that fared first.

I do have a separate storm jib, and would keep it. Currently it has the parrel beads to go round the rolled genoa, but I don't have much confidence in that system. While the mast was down, I fitted a tang for an inner forestay, which I will install at some point when higher-priority jobs are done.

Pete

 

[Deleted member 36384]

I would advise that you need one. The best system I have used with furling headsails is the detachable forestay arrangement. I have only used this once in real anger on a 28' yacht. The roller headsail was furled away; as the last roll goes in both sheets are tensioned firmly and the sail continued to be rolled as one person pulls down on the sheets at the foredeck. This wraps the sheets around the sail and lowers the lead down to pulpit level, thus clearing the fore triangle for the new sails. The key here is tension in the sheets as one wants a snug fit around the furled headsail. The sheets are them made off securely to cleats at the back. This arrangement obviously requires a second set of sheets as the furling genoa sheets remain attached to the furled sail.

On the yacht in question the inner forestay was attached to a highfield lever that could be adjusted and I remember that it was quiet a bit of effort to latch the highfield. We then hoisted a so called working jib (piston hanks) which in itself could be further reefed, slab style. Later as the wind got up further, the jib was dropped and the storm jib was hoisted.

The advantages are as stated previously in the thread, better cut sails for the stronger wind conditions. The piston hanks also allow one to easily manage a sail change from the working jib to the storm jib as there is no need to remove the working jib, just stow it on deck appropriately lashed down and bend the storm sail on above the working jib piston hanks. So the kerfuffel associated with changing sails is really no much of a kerfuffel in boisterous conditions with the working jib on an inner forestay. The disadvantage is that one carries two additional headsails that hardly get used.

On a final point. In general foredeck work is no longer normal practice on most yachts, so the inner forestay, working jib and storm jib gives the inexperienced manageable sails when the wind gets up - some may think that this is worth it, rather than struggle straight from a half furled sail to a storm sail.

Hope this helps.

 

[Houleaux]

Webby wasn't talking about a storm jib, though, but a smaller roller jib which you swap to as soon as it looks like a given passage is going to be a windy one. Doesn't have to be a full on gale, and ideally you'd be doing this in port before you even set out. The small jib would be somewhere between "one reef" and "two reefs" on the normal genoa (ie, the points you roll to to match that much mainsail). So instead of setting out with two reefs in the headsail and not much scope to wind it in further, you go out with a whole sail sized to the conditions, and can make it even smaller (possibly approaching storm jib sized) if required, without turning it into a bag. The concept rather appeals to me, though I don't have one. Since the new boat is fractional rigged with a new foam-luffed genoa, I decided to see how that fared first.

I do have a separate storm jib, and would keep it. Currently it has the parrel beads to go round the rolled genoa, but I don't have much confidence in that system. While the mast was down, I fitted a tang for an inner forestay, which I will install at some point when higher-priority jobs are done.

Pete

Definitely worth it. I have a 150% no.1 genoa with a masthead rig and a 100% no.3 with a higher cut clew. This sets beautifully in F5/6 and is still a good shape when furled in stronger winds, enabling me to point much higher than with the no.1 furled to a similar size. I've only changed down once when under way, but used it plenty when stronger winds are forecast. It made a cross channel last summer close hauled with an average of 30 knots over the deck quite pleasant rather than scary. I also have a storm jib for fitting over the furling sail, but I've yet to use it in anger. I suspect the same is true of most - on coastal cruisers in any case!

 

[JimC]

Increasingly yachts are being designed with fractional rigs having smallish jibs with little overlap. I would think that these could be reefed well down without geeting baggy like the big overlapping genoas do.

 

[Houleaux]

Increasingly yachts are being designed with fractional rigs having smallish jibs with little overlap. I would think that these could be reefed well down without geeting baggy like the big overlapping genoas do.

True. The advantages of having a smaller sail than "standard" with a fractional rig would no doubt be less pronounced than I experience with my masthead rig.

I still think it would be worth it though. Unless you venture far offshore, you're unlikely to be out in conditions that warrant a storm jib so, IMHO, the money would be better spent on a no.3 that you would use regularly and - push come to shove - would do a better job than the no.1 if it really did blow.

 

[Wansworth]

Webby wasn't talking about a storm jib, though, but a smaller roller jib which you swap to as soon as it looks like a given passage is going to be a windy one. Doesn't have to be a full on gale, and ideally you'd be doing this in port before you even set out. The small jib would be somewhere between "one reef" and "two reefs" on the normal genoa (ie, the points you roll to to match that much mainsail). So instead of setting out with two reefs in the headsail and not much scope to wind it in further, you go out with a whole sail sized to the conditions, and can make it even smaller (possibly approaching storm jib sized) if required, without turning it into a bag. The concept rather appeals to me, though I don't have one. Since the new boat is fractional rigged with a new foam-luffed genoa, I decided to see how that fared first.

I do have a separate storm jib, and would keep it. Currently it has the parrel beads to go round the rolled genoa, but I don't have much confidence in that system. While the mast was down, I fitted a tang for an inner forestay, which I will install at some point when higher-priority jobs are done.

Pete

Looking at youtube the guy who sailed around the americas onhis albin vega used a high cut furling sail which looked a bit bigger than a working jib,again on youtube a albin vega that cruised the atlantic is shown running off wind with a serverly furled genoa,certainly on a 27 footer holding on for dear life in storm jib weather seems a no no.

 

[johnalison]

I have sailed Channel and North Sea for many years without a storm jib, though that doesn't mean they may not be a good idea. I don't think I am young and fit enough to cope in the kind of extreme conditions that would make one necessary.

The reasons for my self-confidence include the great improvement in weather forecasts in recent years and my current set-up consisting of a 110% laminate jib which furls to a usable shape. I would not wish to rely on a 150% genoa reefing to that size, and would carry a second, smaller genny for higher winds. It depends on the boat.

 

[LadyInBed]

I must say that after a fair bit of sailing, Ive never had to use one for real. I do however, find it very comforting to know Ive got one on board in the event that the furling headsail rips. Which I have experienced on a few well used yachts.

Snap, my clew blew out on a return trip just N of Alderney which spurred me into rigging an inner forestay and buying a high cut Yankee, then got a storm sail made - just in case
The inner forestay is also great for down wind with twin head sails.

 

[westhinder]

I have a removeable forestay for a storm jib (which I have only used in anger once) but I was thinking about getting a solent blade jib for heavy weather upwind stuff which could then be reefed (up from the bottom) to storm jib size. Would it work?

I have a blade jib on a removable forestay and find it ideal if we have to sail into 25 knots or more. No reef in that sail and haven't felt the need for one. The storm jib goes on the same stay but we haven't used that in anger yet