pvb
Well-Known Member
Yes, the Max Power fuel cells are made by SFC Efoy.
Fuel Cells for Power Generation
- Thread starter TomC
- Start date
Yes, the Max Power fuel cells are made by SFC Efoy.
DavyMac
Well-Known Member
The technology looks great, silent power which is not reliant on the sun shining (and decks covered in solar panels) or the wind blowing is very attractive after all, but the cost looks very high unless silence is absolutely crucial or there is no space for a diesel gen set (which are pretty reliable these days, and will quickly recharge large battery banks and run 240 volt appliances).
I may have made a mistake with the maths (and please correct me if I have), but if the expected life span is 4,000 hours then isn't the life time energy cost £18.28 per kWh:
65 Watt Fules cell: £3,000
Fuel (based on 24 x 10 litre canisters at £73 each - 24 being 4000 hours x 65 watts / 11,100 Wh per canister): £1,752.
Total for 260 kWh = £4,752.
That assumes the unit does not last more than 4,000 hours, but also assumes that it makes 4,000 hours without failing and most users wouldn't rack up 4,000 hours before the three year warranty expired.
TomC
New Member
The MaxPower fuel cells were made by SFC. They used the older technology (the A50 I believe it was called) that was not as efficient as the newer EFOY units (they used 1.1l per kWh instead of 0.9l). Since 2009 the agreement between the two companies has ceased.
At present there is no recycling scheme in place for the fuel cells. In theory there is no reason why this should be the case. The platinum in the stack doesn't get used up, but rather starts to clump together therefore reducing surface area and the efficiency of the reaction. In the future I hope that this platinum can be recovered and therefore offset some of the price of a replacement unit.
As for predictions on price, this is harder to say. Fuel cell companies are spending a lot of money on research. I believe that the price will continue to fall, but over the next few years we will see large outputs with much longer expected lifetimes. If for £3,000 your fuel cell will last 10,000 hours and the cost of fuel reduces it starts to become a more attractive offering.
At present there is no recycling scheme in place for the fuel cells. In theory there is no reason why this should be the case. The platinum in the stack doesn't get used up, but rather starts to clump together therefore reducing surface area and the efficiency of the reaction. In the future I hope that this platinum can be recovered and therefore offset some of the price of a replacement unit.
As for predictions on price, this is harder to say. Fuel cell companies are spending a lot of money on research. I believe that the price will continue to fall, but over the next few years we will see large outputs with much longer expected lifetimes. If for £3,000 your fuel cell will last 10,000 hours and the cost of fuel reduces it starts to become a more attractive offering.
mattnj
Well-Known Member
what about one of these and a nice cylinder of hydrogen on board? 
http://fuelcellstore.com/en/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=0&idproduct=1107
http://fuelcellstore.com/en/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=0&idproduct=1107
TomC
New Member
Once a low cost, lightweight hydrogen storage become available then a PEM fuel cell on a boat is actually a good solution. They're more efficient and generally higher power. Currently, if you wanted long runtime, a 'K' cylinder from BOC contains about 10kWh of power but weighs 65kg.
Improvements are being made here; BOC are about to make available their new ZH cylinder. This contains about 3kWh of power but only weights 10kg and has an integrated regulator.
The horizon stack linked above is actually a great little bit of kit. However it highlights one of the problems faced by integrators. The output of the fuel cell has a huge range and is dependant of the load being drawn. The H-100 linked has an output of 13-23V which means you have to always put the output through a DC-DC converter.
If you're interested in PEM technology then BOC have also launched a low cost 150W fuel cell with integrated inverter and DC-DC conversion so it can be used as a battery charger. http://www.boconline.co.uk/products/products_by_type/industrial_products/hymera_generator.asp.
Improvements are being made here; BOC are about to make available their new ZH cylinder. This contains about 3kWh of power but only weights 10kg and has an integrated regulator.
The horizon stack linked above is actually a great little bit of kit. However it highlights one of the problems faced by integrators. The output of the fuel cell has a huge range and is dependant of the load being drawn. The H-100 linked has an output of 13-23V which means you have to always put the output through a DC-DC converter.
If you're interested in PEM technology then BOC have also launched a low cost 150W fuel cell with integrated inverter and DC-DC conversion so it can be used as a battery charger. http://www.boconline.co.uk/products/products_by_type/industrial_products/hymera_generator.asp.
Ric
Well-Known Member
Just one data-point, but fuel-cells have absolutely no attraction for me. If I can't be self-sufficient with solar and wind - then I'll just cut down my consumption. I'd rather spend the money on a decent hydrogenerator using a reversible pitch prop (eg Brunton Autoprop).
pvb
Well-Known Member
Could you suggest one?
Ric
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately not. But there are several different systems that are in development, and close to production status. I'd prefer that route for electricity generation when they are perfected. I just don't see the point in sailing around burning hydrocarbons to make electricity, whether in conventional generator or in a fuel cell - you may as well just drive around in a motor boat.
AntarcticPilot
Well-Known Member
I think this raises a good point - if you want electricity generating capacity for long range cruising, then ANYTHING that depends on the availability of a fuel supply is a bad thing. And if the fuel is only available in specialized containers at high cost, then it is even less likely to be useful - at least you can get diesel (or a close approximation) pretty much anywhere; you can't get 99.9% pure methanol in a special container on the average dock-side!
The cost is clearly at present uncompetitive even for those who (like me!) remain relatively close to civilization and could (potentially) get the required supplies.
nimbusgb
Well-Known Member
Methanol, although a weak acid, attacks the oxide coating that normally protects aluminium from corrosion:
6 CH3OH + Al2O3 → 2 Al(OCH3)3 + 3 H2O
The resulting methoxide salts are soluble in methanol, resulting in a clean aluminium surface, which is readily oxidized by dissolved oxygen. Also the methanol can act as an oxidizer:
6 CH3OH + 2 Al → 2 Al(OCH3)3 + 3 H2
The reciprocal process effectively fuels corrosion until either the metal is eaten away or the concentration of CH3OH is negligible.
Concerns with methanol's corrosivity in vehicle applications have been addressed by using methanol compatible materials, and fuel additives that serve as corrosion inhibitors.
But then the fuel is not pure enough to use in a fuel cell. But as Tom has explained the fuel is basically 'cartridged' so spillage is not that much of a problem.
I'm still with the group that asks 'where can I get a cartridge of 99.99% pure methanol that matches my fuelcell in a little fishing port in Greece?' ( There's enough trouble every now and then with bottles of butane for the cooker! )
Bobobolinsky
Well-Known Member
That's why I was asking about LPG as the fuel, we already store it relatively safely onboard. If it was a fixed unit, I would also expect energy recovery for space or water heating. A combined heat and power unit.
elton
Well-Known Member
If I could get a fuel cell that would run on Butane Calor Gas, I'd buy one today.
Paulka
Well-Known Member
Hydrogen
Before being too enthusastic about hydrogen, have a look at :
http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/the-hydrogen-hoax
... and, always be aware that hydrogen is highky explosive!
Definitly not the stuff I would welcome aboard.
Paul
Before being too enthusastic about hydrogen, have a look at :
http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/the-hydrogen-hoax
... and, always be aware that hydrogen is highky explosive!
Definitly not the stuff I would welcome aboard.
Paul
Danny
Well-Known Member
I once went to a lecture about the future of hydrogen fuelled road transport. This was getting on for 40 years ago and the subject was of no great interest to me so my recollection is probably a bit dodgy, but I do remember the lecturer saying that metal hydrides could be used for the storage of hydrogen. This was advantageous compared to the low temperature required for storing it as liquid or the high pressures needed to store the gas effectively. ...And certainly safer, I would think.
Guess there must be some drawback though because I've not seen many hydrogen powered cars yet!
TomC
New Member
Whilst that article certainly raises some valid points, it is very short sighted insofar as only looking at existing technology and ignoring any advances to come. Even since it was written (2007) there have been huge developments in production, storage, lifetime and cost.
I was about to write a reply responding to the points made but I don't believe this is the appropriate time or place to do so. If anyone has any specific questions regarding the hydrogen economy I'm still more than happy to answer them.
Willped
New Member
I am installing a fuel cell shortly. Expensive, but worth it to avoid the top hamper of a wind generator. The one question I could not find an answer to is what is their life expectancy? They have a platinum catalyst, which won't last forever. Can it be replaced in isolation? Is deterioration gradual, or sudden?
TomC
New Member
Hi Willped,
The official line we quote on life expectancy is to look at the warranty period. In the case of the EFOY unit, this is 3 years (if you register for free) or 5 years if you pay for the upgrade.
In real life, it is more useful to look at the number of hours the stack has been running for (actual charging, not standby). You can expect at least 3,000 hours before you notice any drop in performance. We've seen customers that have 4,500 hours and still operating.
The problem is, as you identified, the platinum in the fuel cell. This starts to clump together, therefore reducing the surface area. This is a gradual process with the result being a drop in power output rather than a sudden failure.
The stack is not something that can be replaced by the end user. If the unit is in the warranty period then the manufacturer will.
The fuel cell may fail on other parts after operating for many hours (>3,000) such as methanol degrading fuel lines. These can be replaced (unofficially) if the unit is out of warranty.
pvb
Well-Known Member
You know, I don't think 3000 hours is a lot, bearing in mind the tiny output of these things. I can't imagine ordinary weekend sailors buying such an expensive bit of kit, so I'd guess the market is long-term cruisers or liveaboards. For them, even just using the fuel cell for 10 hours a day would mean the thing could be a chuckaway in less than a year!
Ric
Well-Known Member
Tis strange how people have different priorities sailing.
I'm installing a second wind generator, already have loads of solar, and am hankering over a hybrid-marine regenerative propulsion unit. I just don't see the satisfaction of going cruising if I have to burn stacks of expensive hydrocarbons to get there - why not just get a stinker?
bbg
Well-Known Member
Hardly "stacks". I did a 1,100 nm trip last summer, and used about 3 cans (i.e. 15 litres) of methanol, and that was not really trying to conserve electricity. I probably could've managed quite easily on 10 litres. And it is effectively silent, unlike a mobo.
IMHO, fuel cells are probably not for everyone, but mine works great. I couldn't sail without it.
IMHO, fuel cells are probably not for everyone, but mine works great. I couldn't sail without it.