Frozen gas

[nathanlee]

Can't make a brew, and only just got away with making dinner last night. Bugger!

Sod off, winter, you miserable *******.

My gas is on the deck. Anybody got any cunning solutions? Life was easier with the Origo.

 

[EdWingfield]

I found a portable single burner camping stove ok. Fuel is butane cans net weight 227g.

It stows in its rigid plastic case. Mine is branded 'Pyramid' but I've seen other similar stoves.

Oh, and the flame is adjustable making simmer possible.

 

[sarabande]

pour some hot water over the gas bottle, slowly....

Use propane, not butane. Propaner will not "freeze" in the UK, butane does (easily).

If you don't want to change, then check the regulator is newish, and doesn't have water inside it (which freezes the valve).

Long term solutions? Relocate bottle in locker below deck (with vent !); warm the bottle by a small incandescant bulb or heating tape.

 

[nathanlee]

pour some hot water over the gas bottle, slowly....

Use propane, not butane. Propaner will not "freeze" in the UK, butane does (easily).

If you don't want to change, then check the regulator is newish, and doesn't have water inside it (which freezes the valve).

Excellent gassy tips there. Thank you. The hot water tip was cruel though.

I'll see if I can get a propane tank/regulator at the marina later. I have what seem to be uncommon gas tanks with screw tops and no handles.

In the meantime, I want a brew. Is it still sufficiently early in the day to pee on the gas bottle and not be seen?

 

[nathanlee]

p.s. What actually happens to the gas system in these temps?

 

[Murv]

Just another +1 on the propane.
Although I know absolutely nothing about marine applications, we switched to propane in our touring caravan some Years back as we like to camp all Year round.
Propane is slightly less efficient than butane, so costs slightly more in relative terms but the fact you can use it in the bitter cold outweighs any disadvantages to us.
With butane, even though the air temperature may be sufficient to keep it liquid, the corresponding drop in temperature when you start drawing it off can cause it to freeze.

As I say, I know absolutely nothing about boats but for a caravan application, it is as simple as just changing the regulator. In fact, we carry a butane reg in case propane isn't available when we're out and about.

 

[PilotWolf]

p.s. What actually happens to the gas system in these temps?

Butane freezes!

I remember many years back having to keep the kettle full and boiling on a fishing boat. Half of the water for tea and half for defrosting the bottle/regulator - the boss upgraded to propane after that trip!

W.

 

[jerrytug]

Carry the bottle and a bucket up to the marina showers and use lots of hot water to get it hot. Even the marina water should be over 5 degrees. Same here in Kent by the way,good luck!

 

[nathanlee]

Butane freezes!

Ah, good old internet. I'm now and expert, so allow me to knowledge you up.

It doesn't actually freeze, it's just too cold to boil. -.5 degrees for butane, so I read.

 

[sarabande]

butane starts being reluctant to change from liquid to gas at about 0C, and at that temp may not be 'alive' enough to produce enough gas.

propane goes down to about -40C before it becomes sluggish.

There are new regulators which are EU ones at ??? 30mbar, not the old 27. Perhaps check you are getting a new one ? Is your piping in date (there should be a date of expiry printed on it; usually OK to exceed that date in practical terms, but not advised for insurance porpoises.). All the kit (bottles, regulators, piping) is much cheaper from caravan shops.

Sometime water condenses in a regulator, or the moving parts get old and clogged. They can be taken to pieces but it's tricky.


If you are going to use lots of propane all year round, it is quite easy to buy a POL to POL connector and refill a small bottle from a (much cheaper) big one. A refill for a 3.9kg propane is just over £15, and for the 13kg refill it's about £25; thus making a DIY refill about half-price and even less from the 47kg one.

 

[Iliade]

Or

In the meantime, I want a brew. Is it still sufficiently early in the day to pee on the gas bottle and not be seen?

The harbour water is unlikely to be below the gassing point of butane, you could try floating the bottle alongside, or just bring it inside for a while.

Try the spare if it has been in a locker.

Ultimately you need propane or to store the butane in a heated area of the boat. Even the lazarette isn't good enough.

You could always light a small fire on the beach or use a blowlamp to boil the kettle. One can make a pretty effective diesel cooker out of bean cans and rags :0)

 

[nathanlee]

or just bring it inside for a while.

Tried that last night, but after taking the regulator off, the bottle was venting (I could hear/smell it), so decided to leave it where it was and put the regulator back on. 1 hour and 15 minutes to go and I can buy the propane bits... and also a brew from the cafe.

One can make a pretty effective diesel cooker out of bean cans and rags :0)

No. When I left school I symbolically dipped my tie in a moped petrol tank, and then set fire to it (the tie). It was a rather larger fire than I'd anticipated, and it lead to a right old symbolic-ing.

 

[sarabande]

no, it is not "freezing". Butane and propane are liquids which change to a gas when used. What happens at low temps, is that the liquid is very reluctant to change to a gas. So (about) -1C is really the point at which butane refuses to boil off into gas. For propane it's around -42C, and I don't think anyone would be boating at that stage !

 

[CaptainBob]

Years ago, mountaineering in winter, we used to put the canister on top of the pan we were cooking/boiling, inside the tent. Worked a treat!

Also had frozen fuel on boat a few times, mostly when the canister was low, but sometimes during really cold temps also. I used to shake it and allow it to suck the heat out of my hands at the same time. Worked OK but hurt hands!

 

[David2452]

The gas does not freeze as such, or so I am informed, what happens is when the air temp gets low enough it becomes impossible for it to transfer enough heat (or take away enough cold) to allow the butane to go from a liquid to a gaseous state i.e. evaporate, you will often see a ring of frost even on propane bottles in heavy usage indicating the level of the gas and where the transformation is taking place. Apparently often, the only part that needs warming is the regulator, do not lag it as that is counter productive.

 

[Plevier]

Ah, good old internet. I'm now and expert, so allow me to knowledge you up.

It doesn't actually freeze, it's just too cold to boil. -.5 degrees for butane, so I read.

Correct - meaning that even pouring cold water over the bottle and giving it a slosh round will often get you started, and then you can progress to pouring warm water over it!

 

[ChattingLil]

It was a rather larger fire than I'd anticipated, and it lead to a right old symbolic-ing.

Chrissie wrote on here a few months ago about heating the water for tea by tea-lights...

and during a power cut a thome, my hwmo used 8 tea-lights to boil a pint of water. Did take about an hour though.

 

[nathanlee]

do not lag it as that is counter productive.

I'll go fetch my nice warm hoodie from the cockpit then before anybody sees :\

 

[David2452]

I'll go fetch my nice warm hoodie from the cockpit then before anybody sees :\

Actually my statement there is not entirely true, if you wrapped the regulator in something already warm enough to transfer enough heat to allow the LPG to boil it would probably help but only long enough for the heat from whatever you use to go, then it would actually become counter productive as it would keep the surrounding air from carrying away the cold produced by the gas boiling. Heated jackets are sometimes used in large installs in industry.

 

[sailorman]

Can't make a brew, and only just got away with making dinner last night. Bugger!

Sod off, winter, you miserable *******.

My gas is on the deck. Anybody got any cunning solutions? Life was easier with the Origo.

Propane dear boy Propane