Fretting a bit about security - what are your thoughts?

[Ben9000]

Not so much on the Atlantic coast of the med, but the prevalence of firearms used to commit crime in the Caribbean does concern me.

I don't have any experience at all of this cruising area, which is why I'm asking for advice.

I'll be travelling with my wife, young family and dog - so the thought of being boarded by men with guns scares the living daylights out of me.

If I was on my own or with a group of other men, I would be of the mindset of submitting completely, and allowing them to take what they wanted and leave. Travelling with family, I simply could not allow that. Some stories I have read do not bear repeating.

So I was thinking of obtaining a firearms licence and carrying a projectile weapon of my own.

Proximity alarms and floodlights may give me enough time to retrieve it from its locker before the situation starts looking worse from my perspective.

I've had to trawl noonsite for info on places that allow me to take my dog without too much hassle, so the same would apply for firearms. If it's required that I hand it in on point of entry, then I would weigh up my odds. A lot of other places simply require it to be sealed in a gun locker on board, which is fine - and a moot point if used in self defence.

Would I shoot someone attempting to board/already onboard my boat with a visible weapon? I absolutely must, because the alternative puts my family at risk. Sure, it'll end up being the mayor's cousins' nephew, and I'll rot in gaol - but is this not better than even risking some of the other scenarios?

I read recently of an old salt shot in the leg somewhere in the Caribbean. Some people were foaming at the mouth at how high the crime rate with firearms was becoming, but others - mainly people living aboard in the region - were a lot calmer and put it in perspective, saying what a rare occurrence these things are. I'd like to be that kind of person, but I'm not at the moment.

I live in Manchester and rarely a day goes by without a shooting (or two, sadly) but it's a very rare event that someone not involved in crime (or the stoppage thereof) is the victim.

I'm also far more likely to be burgled here I suspect - but again, firearms are not likely to be involved. More to the point, if disturbed, landlubbing thieves will want to run instead of confront, as swift response by the police is (for now at least) theoretically possible. Not so much at an anchorage in foreign climes. And, if the alarm goes off in my house I'll come bounding down the stairs with the steel Hoover attachment, giving the burglar plenty of time to get out. Like most house, mine is of a size where I need not put myself between a thief and any of his exits - forcing a possible physical confrontation. Not so on a boat - once looming in the companionway steps, you are now between me and where I need my family to be, which is in the tender heading for the shore.

Long-winded, I know, but I'm hoping that any of you with direct experience in these matters will put my mind at rest or at least give some alternatives.

Thanks in advance.

 

[sarabande]

I assume that you will be wanting to buy a weapon in this country. You are going to find it extremely difficult to buy a shotgun or rifle if Plod knows that you are heading out of national boundaries.


Currently there is a huge check going on and all shotgun licences and firearms certificates applications are being carefully looked on granting and renewal. I have also heard that gunsafes are being inspected before granting.


Disregarding the point of whether you are a) conversant with and trained in the use of weapons in a lethal situation b) the situation is as clearcut as you make it, waving a gun around will only exacerbate what is happening, and you may frighten them away to return in greater numbers fully tooled up.

I reckon the use of non-lethal equipment at short range is probably as effective as guns. Tazers, pepper gas, stun grenades, smoke, and my favourite, sodding great Co2 extinguishers - the effect of which is to send the recipient into immediate hyperventilation followed by incapacity. The 'fog' and noise is also highly disruptive, but you must be clear as to how you yourself are going to breathe oxygen and survive.

At close range extra bright lights can be useful, but again, against a single attacker.

No easy answers, sorry.


EDIT
one tip that has been aired here is to keep a box of very very low value currency notes (drachmae ? ) plus a fake passport/rolex etc in an obvious hiding place as diversionary bait.

 

[Roberto]

quote: What are your thoughts


My thoughts are if an area needs a gun to be visited I would skip it altogether and go somewhere else.

A gun, and being ready to use it with a split second notice, not for me.




We have cruised Brazil for six months, not the safest of countries it seems, basically always at anchor, two adults and two daughters 3 and 7yo (no dog though).
Brazilians have devised a sort of decalogue response actions in case of an assault which is very much in the lines of what you say you'd do with a group of friends, "take what you want and leave", that would be my preferred one even with the family.

I reckon the assessment of personal and family security is a very personal one.

 

[rallyveteran]

Sir Peter Blake died because he had a gun on board.

You are better off without one, and so are the poor unfortunates you might shoot in haste.

 

[V1701]

Wouldn't carry a gun, would get as much up to date info as possible from those who've been where you want to go recently as you can. Wouldn't let it put me off going where I wanted to go, whether you choose to or not is up to you & the family, though the risk is not great if you are careful...

 

[Conachair]

A few thoughts...

There are so very few incidents with each one having very different circumstances that I think it's impossible to get any kind on handle on the 'best' thing to do. Just nowhere near enough data. If you want to find stuff to back up your opinions either way, you'll find it.

i've been boarded, Luckliy slept peacefully throughout the event, but having thought a lot about that event, next time I head off the effort will go towards some sort of loud alarm with bright lights. Keep them off the boat.

it ain't that bad out there. Dodgy areas are well known, bad stuff happens but very rare. my vote would be to do what you can to keep them off the boat, forget guns.

 

[Roberto]

Also, situations are not always black or white

example, we were anchored near an African village, very poor. We visited the village, talked to the head, gave them a few clothes (also a toddler bathtub) etc etc. The clothes were washed and ironed, if that makes any difference.

As we were preparing to leave, a group of teenagers came on their canoes around the boat.
We had the clear sensation they were looking for something to take away from the boat.
3-4 canoes, about half a dozen people, some of them more than 6ft tall, all half naked (just to say that they had no weapons).
As we were hurryingly weighing anchor, they became more and more menacing, trying to grab the lifebuoy, then a piece of rope, etc while we were shouting.

Had we stayed there for half an hour more, I do not know what might have happened.

What would you do ? Let them do whatever they want ? Shoot them ? Take out a gun to threaten them ?



Just to say that there are many different unpleasant situations which may arise, and develop in very different ways, one type of answer you may be prepared to give while thinking about at home is unpredictably different from what you will or would do in the real case.

 

[GrahamM376]

A European shotgun certificate can be had but, having any type of firearm on board can lead to all sorts of problems including jail in some countries and many people have been killed by their own weapons. The closest to a gun I would ever consider would be a Very pistol, which is also a Class 1 firearm under UK law.

My advice would be not to go anywhere a gun is thought necessary and I speak as someone who many years ago did sometimes carry a semi automatic pistol when working in some dodgy areas of Southern Africa during an insurgent war.

 

[TQA]

A Supersoaker 2500 filled with ammonia is a good close in deterrent and you are not going to get into trouble with the authorities for carrying one or better still two.

Another option that cutoms will most likely ignore is Wasp Nest Destroyer aerosol spray.

I cruise the Eastern Caribbean and it certainly feels safer than the UK. I don't know what the stats say but the Bequia shooting is the first attack I have heard of in 3 years where a gun was used in an attack on a cruiser in my area.

 

[Portofino]

Tricky one
My sailing instructor a retired GP ( should know better?) cruised the Cab a few seasons , with a pump action shot gun.
One evening at anchor he was " circled " by some suspicious folk in a smaller boat,
Went down below got the gun and sat in the cockpit " cleaning it "
They motored off when they saw it no words exchanged .

 

[Poignard]

Is taking a woman and children somewhere where they need armed protection really fair on them?

 

[TQA]

Tricky one
My sailing instructor a retired GP ( should know better?) cruised the Cab a few seasons , with a pump action shot gun.
One evening at anchor he was " circled " by some suspicious folk in a smaller boat,
Went down below got the gun and sat in the cockpit " cleaning it "
They motored off when they saw it no words exchanged .

You realise that the ONLY way he could have had that shotgun available when at anchor was not to declare it. Almost all countries in the Caribbean require guns and ammunition to be handed over to customs on arrival.

Being found with an undeclared firearm will result in the skipper being held in jail and they can expect a substantial fine and possibly some jail time.

There is a yachtsman in jail in Trinidad just now for having undeclared firearms in board. From memory it was a replica muzzle loader and he also had a small starting cannon.

 

[Ariadne]

You realise that the ONLY way he could have had that shotgun available when at anchor was not to declare it. Almost all countries in the Caribbean require guns and ammunition to be handed over to customs on arrival.

Being found with an undeclared firearm will result in the skipper being held in jail and they can expect a substantial fine and possibly some jail time.

There is a yachtsman in jail in Trinidad just now for having undeclared firearms in board. From memory it was a replica muzzle loader and he also had a small starting cannon.

And this is the reality; if you have a firearm (in some places they just ask for weapons so it can include spear guns, X bows and bow & arrows) on board you are breaking the law and will be fined, jailed or whatever for it.

You can buy 12 gauge flare pistols in any Budget marine if you feel the need to. Personally I'd give firearms a miss, unless you are ex military AND have some front line experience at actually shooting/killing people!

On the other hand, as we told by a local Coast Guard chappy. A jam jar of petrol thrown into a pirogue and quickly followed by a hand held/parachute flare will give 100% of would-be attackers more than enough to worry about instead of attacking you.

 

[Talulah]

Worth posting on an American forum. You'll get a completely different type of response.

 

[Neil_Y]

I sailed in some remote areas/anchorages off Venezuelan mainland ( a few years back) and more recently Trinidad and some areas I'd say were a bit rough/possible high crime zones.

Would you get a hand gun if you were travelling in Florida with the family by car? car jacking and muggings are relatively common, often by drug fuelled assailants.

On a boat we had fishing line trip lines attached to small rape alarms, we used these so that we could sleep with open hatches knowing that if a hatch was lifted further or if someone stepped into the cockpit the alarms would go off. If you'e the invader this would scare the ...out of you before you found out if the people on the boat had a gun or not, you'd probably move on/ At least that was my theory and in reality the risks to your family are probably far greater just getting in the car and driving down the road, especially if you hire a car to explore as we did in Morocco and Venezuela.

In my opinion guns escalate the levels of violence as the level of fear rises in both attacker and defender, if you carry a gun for you to be safer you have to kill on site, if they have a gun and see your gun you won't be talking for long. However many will be chancers not hardened criminals and they will be as scared as you.

 

[Carmel2]

Half a bottle of booze that you or anyone else doesn't like with a hand full of crushed sleeping pills in it.

 

[AndrewB]

Consider carrying a personal defence spray. Pocket cylinders of CS gas can be bought in Spain; Mace or Pepper Spray in USA. It's technically illegal to import these to many countries, but I never once had customs officials query their presence aboard.

 

[Bobobolinsky]

Also, situations are not always black or white

example, we were anchored near an African village, very poor. We visited the village, talked to the head, gave them a few clothes (also a toddler bathtub) etc etc. The clothes were washed and ironed, if that makes any difference.

As we were preparing to leave, a group of teenagers came on their canoes around the boat.
We had the clear sensation they were looking for something to take away from the boat.
3-4 canoes, about half a dozen people, some of them more than 6ft tall, all half naked (just to say that they had no weapons).
As we were hurryingly weighing anchor, they became more and more menacing, trying to grab the lifebuoy, then a piece of rope, etc while we were shouting.

Had we stayed there for half an hour more, I do not know what might have happened.

What would you do ? Let them do whatever they want ? Shoot them ? Take out a gun to threaten them ?



Just to say that there are many different unpleasant situations which may arise, and develop in very different ways, one type of answer you may be prepared to give while thinking about at home is unpredictably different from what you will or would do in the real case.

Tourist mistake, you and your wife may have felt better by giving away some old clothes and a plastic baby bath, but someone who has nothing may consider that you are incredibly affluent and then think they can take what they want.

I travel without showing any signs of affluence, particularly in Africa. Locals in Africa are hunter gatherers, their eyes look and see everything, don't be fooled by happy smiling people.

 

[Roberto]

Tourist mistake, you and your wife may have felt better by giving away some old clothes and a plastic baby bath, but someone who has nothing may consider that you are incredibly affluent and then think they can take what they want.

I travel without showing any signs of affluence, particularly in Africa. Locals in Africa are hunter gatherers, their eyes look and see everything, don't be fooled by happy smiling people.

Not in my experience.

The case I talked about has been a single one in many other cases where the same behaviour yielded only happy people. Or say a bit less sad, for half a day maybe?

People in need need not be all criminals, my personal experience has shown me exactly the opposite.

Oh and I am not giving money, I am not distributing anything directly to people, I am not rewarding in any way begging children with candies or money, etc etc.

As for the "tourist mistake", no interest to talk about my whole life.

 

[PhilipH]

No guns. We too, like Roberto have been in West Africa, Brazil and the Caribbean (hello Roberto) and albeit this is a highly personal issue we do not and would not carry a gun. Basically because you may end up shooting the local police chief's brother or they may have more firepower than you can muster.

Incidentally, our cruising in Brazil involved a 1000nm trip up the Amazon with the Rallye Iles du Soleil and we had armed police with our group of 22 boats - it was the only way we would go there. To go alone to some of the places would have meant being robbed or worse.

However, we have lots of American friends who would not leave home without a gun - they don't declare them, just hide them. If you see a Texas burgee on a US flagged vessel you know they have at least one .45 onboard.

Having said this, it's not enough. Just like in Manchester, we take precautions. The first is to really understand what is happening. There was an act of piracy in late 2009 between Trinidad and Grenada, and despite there being none since and there being very special circumstances about that particular act, this still gets trotted out as a reason for not sailing between Trinidad and Grenada - it's codswallop. Having said that a friend of ours was robbed this year while at an anchorage at the Club Nautico in Colon, Panama - we were in Shelter Bay Marina, across the bay - he was trying to save some money, but everyone (well, not him) knew that being at anchor over at Colon is dangerous and so did not go there. Details on noonsite.com

The point is it's about accurate knowledge and intelligent assessment of risk.

After that you can protect yourselves. Do you lock your house at night? Do you have a burglar alarm on your house? Why do we expect it to be different with a boat?

We had specially made a lockable grill for the companionway so that we are secure inside (and when we leave the boat to go ashore) but we get air flow i.e. don't use the washboards. We also have lockable/removable grills for the saloon and forecabin hatches so that we are secure but again have air flow,. Then if we were to be really concerned we have two rape alarms which can be fitted in the cockpit with trip wires so that anyone entering the cockpit at night would be deafened and blinded.

That brings you to the daylight situation of people in boats/canoes coming up to you when at anchor. Rule 1. do not let them onboard. Rule 2. maybe give them something - a cold drink for example. Rule 3. get the handheld VHF out as if making a call. Rule 4 ... depends what happens next.

Now we are not entirely defenceless and we do have a rather large and sharp machete to hand as well as a pepper spray and a a flare gun. Clearly though you would use judgement as to whether deploying/displaying these has a chance of getting people to back off. If not then give it up - it's only stuff and you should be insured.

Basically don't be put off by the scaremongers - in every bar on every beach there will be some cruiser wanting to talk horror stories. Frankly it's more dangerous being in the UK what with the scary driving and the rude and aggressive people.

Go for it and enjoy without the worry of having a gun on board - BTW, does SWMBO know how to use a gun???????