French Papers - Epilogue Mk2 - The RYA respond

[alant]

I agree the original post leaves a lot to be desired:

1. What is the information that the RYA only wish to show paying members? If it's not important then what's the harm in posting the detail for all to see? If it is important then clearly we need to to find out what it is.

2. Boats have been prosecuted? Let's have some detail. If the RYA had real world examples why did they need to waste members money consulting a lawyer? All they'd have to do is state the court cases or (if an on the spot alternative was offered) note down the offence on the receipt.

3. The source. Sailfree has claimed that the original registration document fixed penalty legislation features in the Bloc Marine and that he knew for a fact that at least one prosecution had occurred.
Now he says the RYA have told him there's no such legislation. My gut feeling is he made up his Bloc Marine source and is telling the truth about his RYA source but it could easily be the other way round.

One thing we can be sure of. Nobody has yet posted any legislation stating details of an offence committed when someone loses their original registration docs in France.[1] Nobody has identified a single verifiable instance of boat that has been prosecuted for this. British boats go back and forth to France all the time. I take the view that if the SSR myth were true someone would have posted some verifiable details. I respect people who draw other conclusions.




As the SSR myth is in it's death throes I'll change the subject a bit. We're told the RYA debunk the SSR myth but instead say this:

"In French territorial waters, the vessel must carry on board original documentation that proves its nationality."

Seems plausible, but begs questions an RYA member can answer from the full info.

1) Does "must" mean "legally required under French law with a fine if you can't"?
2) Does "must" mean, required under international law, but not specifically under French Law?
3) Does "must" mean "Not legally required but you're far better off if you do."
4) If 1 or 2, exactly which laws apply?

[1] These are clearly nothing to do with registration.

Would you expect your local golf club to show minutes of their agm to non-members?

Of course not!

So why, do you expect the RYA - a membership organisation, to do the same?

Put your hand in your pocket & join, if it means so much to you!

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Put your hand in your pocket & join, if it means so much to you!

If the RYA are able to answer points 1-4 with verifiable fact then I'm happy to re-join.

 

[al.carpenter]

Having established that it is theoretically possible to satisfy French requirements for proof of flag nationality, the pedants really should be telling us what alternative document they would accept. By that I do not mean 'what we think they ought to be satisfied with'.

As I have stated many times for months, (from my own experience and meetings with the Law Agencies in Cherbourg).... a bill of sale, an insurance policy, a marina invoice, a loan agreement or lease contract, a VHF licence, a river licence etc... as long as you have the yacht's name on it. A clear conscience, a polite and respectful reception of the Officer asking questions and you will be fine and not fined..... You are after all Europeen citizens (sometimes I doubt it but it's another story) and free to go anywhere you wish as long as you are not deceiving anyone by doing so.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

I know this was not a competition but I cannot help to congratulate you and Toad on having been right all this while... and for your tenacity and patience in making your point. I will hammer the nail down further by remembering that fining a british yacht for not producing a SSR doc was not LEGAL... Regards, Al

Agree it's wasn't a competition, but I still think we should be congratulating you Al. Through all this time trying to disentangle fact from fiction a native French Speaker was a massive asset. I've said it before, but even so, many thanks. You played a huge part in the search for truth.

You also have great taste in boats.

 

[Tranona]

As I have stated many times for months, (from my own experience and meetings with the Law Agencies in Cherbourg).... a bill of sale, an insurance policy, a marina invoice, a loan agreement or lease contract, a VHF licence, a river licence etc... as long as you have the yacht's name on it. A clear conscience, a polite and respectful reception of the Officer asking questions and you will be fine and not fined..... You are after all Europeen citizens (sometimes I doubt it but it's another story) and free to go anywhere you wish as long as you are not deceiving anyone by doing so.

Ah! Al, but as I have pointed out the people you have been speaking to have no responsibility for checking documents for visiting ships. They may well be satisfied with a Bournemouth Corporation bus pass as evidence because they have no powers to ask for anything.

As Sybarite has pointed and I confirmed it is ONLY the Douaniers that have that power - and it seems that they exercise it from time to time.

As for the deluded people who still think they have "proved" something - all that is emerged is that the SSR is not specifically mentioned as an acceptable document in the legislation - but then neither is any other non-French document so that is not surprising.

As somebody who got suckered into this pointless discussion several years ago, it seems that nothing of substance has changed, despite all the hot air expended. That is hardly surprising as the situation in respect of documentation was resolved nearly 30 years ago and nothing has changed since.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

As somebody who got suckered into this pointless discussion several years ago,

You didn't get suckered into it, I'm pretty sure you are actually the inventor of the 'fixed penalty for no SSR in France' myth.

Certainly your post was the first time I ever recall seeing it stated and it was the fact that you couldn't back up what you said with fact that first made me
wonder if the myth was indeed a myth.

I'd like to know if anyone can find a single statement of the myth before you first posted it? In fact it would be interesting to track it down to original source.

it seems that nothing of substance has changed

Quite the opposite. Most of the time you have claimed the RYA was your source. Sailfree has now proved that was 100% a lie. (Admittedly that was already obvious and you had in the meantime admitted you had no source but even so all useful information to the myth buster!)

By eliminating fictional sources we do get nearer the truth. Sooner or later we end up where we are now. The liars have actually run out of fictional sources they can use. They can't now say French Law is their source. They can't now say the RYA is their source. They can't say the Bloc Marine is their Source. The myth loses credibility at every stage.

A lot has changed and for some these miserable threads have been a very useful process.

 

[al.carpenter]

Ah! Al, but as I have pointed out the people you have been speaking to have no responsibility for checking documents for visiting ships. They may well be satisfied with a Bournemouth Corporation bus pass as evidence because they have no powers to ask for anything.

As Sybarite has pointed and I confirmed it is ONLY the Douaniers that have that power - and it seems that they exercise it from time to time.

As for the deluded people who still think they have "proved" something - all that is emerged is that the SSR is not specifically mentioned as an acceptable document in the legislation - but then neither is any other non-French document so that is not surprising.

As somebody who got suckered into this pointless discussion several years ago, it seems that nothing of substance has changed, despite all the hot air expended. That is hardly surprising as the situation in respect of documentation was resolved nearly 30 years ago and nothing has changed since.

Hi Tranona, the people I have talked to are Law Enforcers (Gendarmes) and there is not a Law for Gendarmes and another one for Customs...
I do not quite understand why you are trying once more to twist the obvious to make your point of view the right one.
If it makes you happy, I will gladly say it... the french lawyer paid by RYA is an idiot, the officers in Cherbourg are stupid, the customs officers who checked my boats those last 30 years where bribed by me to let me off the hook for not producing a SSR, I am a liar and a flipping nutcase.... Right, feeling better now? (this said on a light note and no offence intended.) Al

 

[mike_bryon]

By eliminating fictional sources we do get nearer the truth. Sooner or later we end up where we are now. The liars have actually run out of fictional sources they can use..

The irony burns. Someone posting under the name ‘toad oftoadhall’ wants to “eliminate fictional sources”

Describing people as ‘liars’ Toad is abusive, please stop.

 

[Tranona]

Hi Tranona, the people I have talked to are Law Enforcers (Gendarmes) and there is not a Law for Gendarmes and another one for Customs...
I do not quite understand why you are trying once more to twist the obvious to make your point of view the right one.
If it makes you happy, I will gladly say it... the french lawyer paid by RYA is an idiot, the officers in Cherbourg are stupid, the customs officers who checked my boats those last 30 years where bribed by me to let me off the hook for not producing a SSR, I am a liar and a flipping nutcase.... Right, feeling better now? (this said on a light note and no offence intended.) Al

Sorry, but you misunderstand.

WQhat Sybarite posted was the law that the Douaniers operate under, Their responsibilities are very different from the Gendarmes Maritime.

What you are saying is akin to parking wadens having the same power as police.

 

[Tranona]

The irony burns. Someone posting under the name ‘toad oftoadhall’ wants to “eliminate fictional sources”

Describing people as ‘liars’ Toad is abusive, please stop.

I am afraid it is so ingrained in some people that perhaps (being generous) they do not know they are doing it.

That is why it is best to completely ignore anything they say as it is of no consequence!

 

[alant]

If the RYA are able to answer points 1-4 with verifiable fact then I'm happy to re-join.

Why should the RYA bother to answer you?

In their eyes, your a nonmember & as such don't even exist in the same universe.

Some people always want something for nothing!

 

[Tranona]

Why should the RYA bother to answer you?

In their eyes, your a nonmember & as such don't even exist in the same universe.

Some people always want something for nothing!

I think perhaps he does not actually exist! In a previous episode in this pointless saga he received a personal invitation via this forum from the RYA to meet at their offices to discuss his concerns(?).

Unsurprisingly he did not take the offer up. I think it is because he either does not want to expose himself or he wishes to remain in his own fantasy world. He certainly works very hard at trying to ignore the real world!

 

[alant]

He's a troll perhaps.

I think perhaps he does not actually exist! In a previous episode in this pointless saga he received a personal invitation via this forum from the RYA to meet at their offices to discuss his concerns(?).

Unsurprisingly he did not take the offer up. I think it is because he either does not want to expose himself or he wishes to remain in his own fantasy world. He certainly works very hard at trying to ignore the real world!

For someone who doesn't exist, he either has a big spoon, or lives under a bridge.

There was a rumour some time back, that 'Herb' - saviour of TransAts weather fame, was not as many thought - a Canadian living in a log cabin somewhere in the frozen North, but a CIA computer checking movements.

Maybe Toad is a virus on that same computer.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

In a previous episode in this pointless saga he received a personal invitation via this forum from the RYA to meet at their offices to discuss his concerns(?).

Unsurprisingly he did not take the offer up.

Not so. As you know, both Ubergeekian and I accepted the offer. I'm am still chomping at the bit to look around RYA towers. Even more so now I know they have a detailed legal opinion on the myth to offer.

As you know according to AndrewN the sole hold-up is on their side - finding a date when AndrewN the Legal and Government Affairs Manager and the Cruising Manager are all available. Plus they're getting a keg of beer in for me. [1]

I think that's understandable, these guys are busy people.

With AndrewN's permission I'm happy to forward PMs and E-Mails to anyone who wishes to read the arrangements so far first hand.

Why do you say "unsurprisingly"? Any UK sailor turning down a tour of RYA HQ would be very surprising.


[1] Ok, I made that bit up.

 

[Tranona]

IIRC there were reports on here of charter boats only carrying photocopies of the registration certificates and fines being issued on the basis that originals documents were not available for inspection. If I understand the RYA's summary correctly then the basis of these fines is somewhat suspect.

I do not understand how you come to this conclusion. Read it again.

 

[Sailfree]

This Forum is facinating, like many forums the contributors are a mixture of people from the constructive and helpful, to the searching and some might think nitpicking, to wind up merchants and Trolls, to the misguided.

Tim I consider to be investigative but to the extent that some may consider nit picking but I believe his intentions are to establish the facts.

Toad is often goading and prevocative in his response so I consider his priority is to be a wind up merchant rather than a seeker of the facts.

I am disappointed though when new people post on here genuinely seeking guidance and others following their own agenda then effectively obfuscate the clear and helpful answer.

To sum up.

The French tend to welcome UK visitors but have a culture of expecting documentation. French leisure vessels over a certain size are required to always carry the original vessel registration document. French cars must carry the registration document.

The French are entitle to seek proof that a UK pleasure vessel is entitled to fly a UK flag. The lack of requiring this equivalent registration document in the UK lead the UK authorities (in 1982?) to introduce the simpler SSR in addition to the more complex Part 1 registration to satisfy foreign authorities seeking proof of country of registration.

It appears that lacking any registration many authorities are reasonable providing they are convinced of the country of registration possibly by accepting other documents BUT not all are so sympathetic and some UK flagged ships have been fined. I repeat I spoke to a Channel Island skipper in Carteret that had just been marched to the cash point to pay an on the spot fine for not having the original ships registration documents.

The RYA assisted me in trying to clarify these issues and provided me, as a member, with a comprehensive and helpful response obtained from a French Lawyer. They then kindly offered the summary guidance for the benefit of everyone that I posted as first post in this thread.

I have no doubt that our experiences this summer visiting France may give rise to further threads and comments and perhaps give a better overall view of custom and practice rather than the possibilities of following the letter of the French Law.

The advice is clearly there and I would welcome anyone who has not sailed to France to do so. Like many I look forward to spending a sailing holiday in France (S Brittany in my case) this year.

I would also welcome anyone that want to do a weekend X channel , meet face to face fellow formites, enjoy a drink together and a meal at the Cherbourg YC to join us on the scuttlebutt cruise on the 23/24 Sept. I will carry the correct papers but if anyone wants to stand on their right as a UK citizen and repeat the phrase that his Dad didn't need a passport when he landed in France on June 6th 1944 we may look on in pleasure at the results!!

 

[Lucky Duck]

I do not understand how you come to this conclusion. Read it again.

“Strictly speaking, therefore, a British vessel navigating outside UK territorial waters need not be registered but it must be in a position to produce proof of its nationality. In French territorial waters, the vessel must carry on board original documentation that proves its nationality. For all practical purposes, the simplest and most effective way of proving nationality is by producing the original Certificate of British Registry

”

As noted earlier, other documents such as ship's radio license are as reliable indication of nationality as the SSR certificate. This does of course assume that the original of these are held on board.

 

[Secret Smile]

Is SSR enough

I understand the need to carry your origional SSR and will!!!

However, do you also need to carry your origional proof of VAT paid when sailing in Europe. Mine is held by Lombard Marine as I have a mortgage with them. They are happy to give me certified copies - will this be enough for visiting foreign ports?

So what are all the documents you require when sailing away in foriegn waters?

 

[Tranona]

I understand the need to carry your origional SSR and will!!!

However, do you also need to carry your origional proof of VAT paid when sailing in Europe. Mine is held by Lombard Marine as I have a mortgage with them. They are happy to give me certified copies - will this be enough for visiting foreign ports?

So what are all the documents you require when sailing away in foriegn waters?

Read the RYA guidance. Specifically on VAT receipts, all the evidence suggests that you will never be asked. The threads on VAT are as long as these - because the "law" is both complex and at times vague - particularly in the way it is viewed by different authorities/officials.

 

[Tranona]

”

As noted earlier, other documents such as ship's radio license are as reliable indication of nationality as the SSR certificate. This does of course assume that the original of these are held on board.

This is only some people's views - no evidence to support the acceptance of any other documents than the "official" registration document except an unconfirmed report that there is a bi-lateral agreement between France and Italy that for some classes of boat (where registration in Italy is not required) a copy of the insurance document is acceptable.

The only way of ever finding out is for somebody to challenge a fine in the French courts. Highly unlikely to happen because the number of transgressors is very small and the amounts of fine involved tiny in relation to the costs of a challenge.

Plus, of course if it was ever resolved Toad would lose all reason for living!