French Papers - Epilogue Mk2 - The RYA respond

[Bru]

Hey look,

£25 and five minutes on t'interweb and through the post a few days later came a natty little laminated sustificate which is gonna look quite cool in a frame nailed to a bulkhead where it won't get lost unless the boat sinks

there is, as far as I can tell, nothing at all to stop you applying for a new sustificate after, say, four years rather than five so there's no reason to find yourself in France with an expired certificate. Actually, as far as I can tell, there's nothing to stop you registering for multiple certificates for the same boat. I think they'll happily send you as many as your prepared to pay for!

as the Meerkats say, "seemples" so unless you like endless and in reality unresolvable arguments on internet forums just go and register your boat on the Small Ships Register (which was set up for the express purpose of providing UK boat owners with a piece of paper to keep those money grabbing Johnny Foreigner officials happy )

The daft thing is that we've got no plans to go anywhere near France in the foreseeable future but having read the earlier thread on this topic I thought, in the words of the immortal Clarkson, "how hard can it be"

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Plus, of course if it was ever resolved Toad would lose all reason for living!

It is resolved.

 

[Lucky Duck]

This is only some people's views - no evidence to support the acceptance of any other documents than the "official" registration document except an unconfirmed report that there is a bi-lateral agreement between France and Italy that for some classes of boat (where registration in Italy is not required) a copy of the insurance document is acceptable.

The only way of ever finding out is for somebody to challenge a fine in the French courts. Highly unlikely to happen because the number of transgressors is very small and the amounts of fine involved tiny in relation to the costs of a challenge.

By nature of the ship's radio license and the SSR application procedures both are in practice as accurate as each other in respect to a boat's real nationality, but as you say there is no official confirmation that a foreign official would acknowledge this or any other documents a boat is recommended to carry in lieu of the original registration certificate.

While writing I would like to thank the 'helpful' poster who mentioned the well known sayings from the car insurance website and BBC motoring programme. No thread on this subject is complete without them

 

[Bru]

While writing I would like to thank the 'helpful' poster who mentioned the well known sayings from the car insurance website and BBC motoring programme. No thread on this subject is complete without them

My pleasure

(I stand by the serious point though - it is so simple and relatively inexpensive to apply for SSR and to carry the certificate on board that this whole debate is completely academic IMO)

 

[avole]

I've just joined this forum hoping to learn something from those more experienced than I.

Instead, I find threads like these, and the pirate threads, that have everything to do with semantics and pointless bickering rather than all the different aspects of yachting.

What on earth is wrong with travelling to France with identification papers? Why even argue? Frankly, if you sail to prove an obscure point rather than for pleasure, then you deserve every fine you get.

Sorry, but had to get that off my chest.

 

[Sailfree]

I've just joined this forum hoping to learn something from those more experienced than I.

Instead, I find threads like these, and the pirate threads, that have everything to do with semantics and pointless bickering rather than all the different aspects of yachting.

What on earth is wrong with travelling to France with identification papers? Why even argue? Frankly, if you sail to prove an obscure point rather than for pleasure, then you deserve every fine you get.

Sorry, but had to get that off my chest.

Well said.

You soon learn whose opinion and advice is worthwhile. In many ways the characters on here are no different from those you meet at a yacht club bar. In the flesh though most are more friendly and polite - the internet does tempt some to write things they would not have the courage face to face!

Don't be put off though as among the confusion there is knowledge. I have driven in France for over 35yrs, never been stopped and in ignorance never carried the car registration document. After this thread I will be carrying the log book when I am off skiing next week!

 

[Plomong]

The liars have actually run out of fictional sources they can use. They can't now say French Law is their source. They can't now say the RYA is their source. They can't say the Bloc Marine is their Source. The myth loses credibility at every stage.

See Bloc Marine Atlantique 2006 page 179, Principales Infractions:
Défaut de titre de navigation: Dt du 2.7.1960 - Art 2. Contravention de 5ª classe (1500 Euros au plus, montant qui peut porté à 3000 Euros en cas de récidive lorsque le réglement le prévoit).

Note: Titre de navigation includes the "Acte de francisation" for a French vessel. For a foreign vessel, Titre de navigation of the nation of registration. In the UK, there is: SSR provided just for this purpose, as others have pointed out so many times.

So please stop trying to muddy the waters. The French have it all sewn up and have told you what they require -- legally. Live with it -- it is their country and their law.

Plomong

 

[al.carpenter]

I've just joined this forum hoping to learn something from those more experienced than I.

Instead, I find threads like these, and the pirate threads, that have everything to do with semantics and pointless bickering rather than all the different aspects of yachting.

What on earth is wrong with travelling to France with identification papers? Why even argue? Frankly, if you sail to prove an obscure point rather than for pleasure, then you deserve every fine you get.

Sorry, but had to get that off my chest.

Nobody, both sides of argumentatives has EVER said you should not register your boat and take your documents over... on the contrary. The argument is over a UK flagged yacht being fined for not producing a SSR reg doc when it is (now proven) illegal. When a french custom officer issues a fine, he has to name clearly the reference and code of the offense and apply the Law. Such law does not exist so every one having been fined for not producing a SSR doc has been illegaly extorted of his money. If you think that is "normal", then fine... This is the ONLY point we tried to make...

 

[Plomong]

Such law does not exist so every one having been fined for not producing a SSR doc has been illegaly extorted of his money.

Not true -- see my post above: chapter and verse.

Plomong

 

[Tranona]

It is resolved.

However, the "myth" only exists in your mind!

The rest of the world can't see any "myth", so I assume you will now retire from the fray as you now recognise there never was a real "myth"

 

[avole]

Nobody, both sides of argumentatives has EVER said you should not register your boat and take your documents over... on the contrary. The argument is over a UK flagged yacht being fined for not producing a SSR reg doc when it is (now proven) illegal. When a french custom officer issues a fine, he has to name clearly the reference and code of the offense and apply the Law. Such law does not exist so every one having been fined for not producing a SSR doc has been illegaly extorted of his money. If you think that is "normal", then fine... This is the ONLY point we tried to make...

I see. Thanks for the clarification.
Moderators, please remove me from this forum. I see no point in continuing here.

Frankly, having worked my way through these posts, I wouldn't blame the French authorities if they impounded all British registered vessels. With a couple of honorable exceptions, you lot deserve it.

 

[timbartlett]

See Bloc Marine Atlantique

the Bloc Marine is no more a definitive guide to French law that Reeds is to British law.

it is their country and their law.

indeed it is. And I am sure most of them would not wish their officials to break their law any more than we appreciate "overzealous" officials breaking ours.

 

[bbg]

It is resolved.

Agreed. The douaniers resolved it when their HQ gave this instruction to their officers:

Les douanes françaises ont ainsi la possibilité de sanctionner le défaut de présentation d'un acte de nationalité en vertu de l'article 410 du code des douanes.

The effect of which is - foreign ships have to carry registration documents, and if they don't they can be fined.

There is nothing in that statement which is inconsistent with what the OP said in this thread:

Strictly speaking, therefore, a British vessel navigating outside UK territorial waters need not be registered but it must be in a position to produce proof of its nationality.

We already knew that - it is part of British law and I don't think anyone has ever said otherwise.

In French territorial waters, the vessel must carry on board original documentation that proves its nationality. For all practical purposes, the simplest and most effective way of proving nationality is by producing the original Certificate of British Registry

Again, not inconsistent with the douaniers' HQ instruction to their agents.

No-one has ever identified any documents that they say would fulfil the requirement of "proving nationality" other than registration documents.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

See Bloc Marine Atlantique 2006 page 179, Principales Infractions:
Défaut de titre de navigation: Dt du 2.7.1960 - Art 2. Contravention de 5ª classe (1500 Euros au plus, montant qui peut porté à 3000 Euros en cas de récidive lorsque le réglement le prévoit).

Note: Titre de navigation includes the "Acte de francisation" for a French vessel. For a foreign vessel, Titre de navigation of the nation of registration. In the UK, there is: SSR provided just for this purpose, as others have pointed out so many times.

So please stop trying to muddy the waters. The French have it all sewn up and have told you what they require -- legally. Live with it -- it is their country and their law.

Plomong

So in your view French Customs have got their law wrong:
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2826307

...and the RYA have failed to realize that a very well known bit of legislation actually applies to foreign flagged vessels.

You never know, you might be right.

Sailfree has also stated that this legislation is in the Bloc Marine. Perhaps he could confirm that you're right and the RYA are wrong?

If the RYA did get it wrong maybe you could mail legal@rya.org.uk and tell them? (I'm serious - if they got it wrong they *will* want to know, wouldn't you?)

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Agreed. The douaniers resolved it when their HQ gave this instruction to their officers:

The douaniers resolved it when they failed to name a single relevant offence *or* an on the spot fine for foreign flagged boats who couldn't produce an original reg doc.

Don't you find it somewhat odd that you're advocating the existance of a law that after 3 years NOBODY can find a trace of? Not the French Police. Not French Customs. Not even the RYA. Does that seriously ring no alarm bells at all?

When you first joined this debate, you said you'd never heard of this law. Nor have I. Don't you find that odd? There was a day 30 odd years ago when everyone you knew who sailed, and yourself, all had to go out and buy an SSR in the same season. Yet you don't remember it happening?

For me that's the clincher. Not only can nobody find the law but NOBODY remembers a season 30 odd years ago where the French passed a law that meant almost everyone on the UK South Coast had to buy a reg doc just to nip over to France. I find it impossible that I, or anyone else will have forgotten that. Yet nobody remembers it.

We all remember the October Strom, but we've all forgotten the season that sailing to France became a criminal act. Poppycock. We don't remember it because it didn't happen.

No-one has ever identified any documents that they say would fulfil the requirement of "proving nationality" other than registration documents.

If you're an RYA member you can find out what docs they have in mind.

Sadly, I'm told by an RYA instructor that as an ex-member "In their eyes, your a nonmember & as such don't even exist in the same universe.".

 

[alant]

The douaniers resolved it when they failed to name a single relevant offence *or* an on the spot fine for foreign flagged boats who couldn't produce an original reg doc.

Don't you find it somewhat odd that you're advocating the existance of a law that after 3 years NOBODY can find a trace of? Not the French Police. Not French Customs. Not even the RYA. Does that seriously ring no alarm bells at all?

When you first joined this debate, you said you'd never heard of this law. Nor have I. Don't you find that odd? There was a day 30 odd years ago when everyone you knew who sailed, and yourself, all had to go out and buy an SSR in the same season. Yet you don't remember it happening?

For me that's the clincher. Not only can nobody find the law but NOBODY remembers a season 30 odd years ago where the French passed a law that meant almost everyone on the UK South Coast had to buy a reg doc just to nip over to France. I find it impossible that I, or anyone else will have forgotten that. Yet nobody remembers it.

We all remember the October Strom, but we've all forgotten the season that sailing to France became a criminal act. Poppycock. We don't remember it because it didn't happen.



If you're an RYA member you can find out what docs they have in mind.

Sadly, I'm told by an RYA instructor that as an ex-member "In their eyes, your a nonmember & as such don't even exist in the same universe.".

Nothing said about you being an ex member!

You demanded, even though a non member making no contribution whatsoever to funds, that the RYA oblige you by giving free advice paid for by others. Why should they?

You then, as a freeloader, continue to then criticise the RYA.

 

[Sybarite]

The douaniers resolved it when they failed to name a single relevant offence *or* an on the spot fine for foreign flagged boats who couldn't produce an original reg doc.

Don't you find it somewhat odd that you're advocating the existance of a law that after 3 years NOBODY can find a trace of? Not the French Police. Not French Customs. Not even the RYA. Does that seriously ring no alarm bells at all?

When you first joined this debate, you said you'd never heard of this law. Nor have I. Don't you find that odd? There was a day 30 odd years ago when everyone you knew who sailed, and yourself, all had to go out and buy an SSR in the same season. Yet you don't remember it happening?

For me that's the clincher. Not only can nobody find the law but NOBODY remembers a season 30 odd years ago where the French passed a law that meant almost everyone on the UK South Coast had to buy a reg doc just to nip over to France. I find it impossible that I, or anyone else will have forgotten that. Yet nobody remembers it.

We all remember the October Strom, but we've all forgotten the season that sailing to France became a criminal act. Poppycock. We don't remember it because it didn't happen.



If you're an RYA member you can find out what docs they have in mind.

Sadly, I'm told by an RYA instructor that as an ex-member "In their eyes, your a nonmember & as such don't even exist in the same universe.".

Why do you persist in quoting law that is not relevant? The clauses you refer to relate to the right of a custom's officer to board a ship.

You continue to gloss over the law-making process in France which I have described elsewhere. An "Instruction Administrative" IS the law. The mail I received from the Douane headquarters is a copy of an instruction administrative sent to their offices for application. That IS the law - unless somebody wishes to challenge it in court. However you need to note that this document does not change the law; it simply clarifies its application.

Did the French lawyer take this into account? As the instruction is very recent he may not have been made aware of it; I just don't know. In my professional capacity I used to have up to 8 hours per week of legal/fiscal consultations and so I am fairly familier with how the system works in practice.

You also gloss over the paragraph in the letter where the HO representative talks about
documents. She mentions "documents probants" (documents which provide the proof) in a general point BUT then goes on to say that as far as Britain is concerned they have a ship's registry. It couldn't be clearer. She then adds that for those without the correct documentation (as they have defined it), they are subject to a fine.

Whether that fine is applied or not is a question for each officer, as is whether or not they will accept an alternative document. I would consider that given the discussion around this point, which will surely have been followed by the Douane, their attitude risks being much less "laisser-aller" in the future.

How many times have you received a warning when the police were entitled to give you a fine? I have not been fined because I explained my circumstance to the officers. If I had been shirty I would have been. In the past I was once given time to produce a document by post.

As far as those who say a radio certificate is adequate I applied to the RYA (because of the British flag I was obliged to fly according the rules when I bought my boat) and they refused because I was in France. The French authorities refused because I had a British flag.

 

[timbartlett]

As far as those who say a radio certificate is adequate I applied to the RYA (because of the British flag I was obliged to fly according the rules when I bought my boat) and they refused because I was in France. The French authorities refused because I had a British flag.

For at least 15 year (and I believe considerably more) a vessel qualified as british either by being on the British register or by being owned by a british resident (OK the last is a bit of an oversimplification, but not much).

As you were neither, can you please explain why you believe you were entitled to wear a British ensign (never mind "obliged" to fly)?

And as the RYA has never been responsible for issuing Ship Radio Licences, could you also explain why (and how) you "applied" to the RYA for one.

Incidentally, your problems with your radio licence seem to support the argument that a radio licence would be quite a good way of proving your vessel's nationality: you couldn't get a french one because it wasn't french, nor could you get a british one because it wasn't legally british!

She mentions "documents probants" (documents which provide the proof) in a general point BUT then goes on to say that as far as Britain is concerned they have a ship's registry. It couldn't be clearer.

I'm sorry, but it could be a lot clearer. If she meant that a registration certificate is compulsory, why didn't she just say so? Why mess about with all the circumlocution about "documents probants" etc if what she meant was a registration certificate?

The most baffling bit is why she bothered misrepresenting UNCLOS.

PS Actually, no. The most baffling bit is why, after so many posts saying that the only way to get an answer is by getting an opinion from a French lawyer, we now have an opinion from a french lawyer which suddenly isn't good enough.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Why do you persist in quoting law that is not relevant? The clauses you refer to relate to the right of a custom's officer to board a ship.

I love moments like this!

I'm quoteing them direct from you. You said they came from French Customs here:

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2824664&postcount=1

Classic!

And while Sybarite kicks himself, bbg agreed this was the law involved here.

An "Instruction Administrative" IS the law. The mail I received from the Douane headquarters is a copy of an instruction administrative sent to their offices for application. That IS the law - unless somebody wishes to challenge it in court.

What? So this on the spot fine didn't exist until a few weeks back when I (and then you) asked the question which prompted this "Instruction Administrative"? You and I have prompted a new French law? So what law have then been using for the last 30 years before we asked? This is hilarious!

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Incidentally, your problems with your radio licence seem to support the argument that a radio licence would be quite a good way of proving your vessel's nationality: you couldn't get a french one because it wasn't french, nor could you get a british one because it wasn't legally british!

Whereas getting an SSR is a doddle.

PS Actually, no. The most baffling bit is why, after so many posts saying that the only way to get an answer is by getting an opinion from a French lawyer, we now have an opinion from a french lawyer which suddenly isn't good enough.

People do seem to change thier minds a lot don't they! A few weeks back Sybarite, bbg and at least two others were quoting the legislation in Sybarite's mail as gospel. Then someone read it and worked out it didn't mention registration at all (but did mention narcotics!!!) and all of a sudden people looked closely at the text of the e-mail as definitive law instead!

People really are grasping at straws here.

Now the RYA have expressed a view I really don't see what's to stop people mailing the RYA legal dept here: legal@rya.org.uk and telling them where their mistake lies. If the RYA have got the law wrong, they and their members will not want to be left in the dark about it.