French Papers - Epilogue Mk2 - The RYA respond

[Sailfree]

I pointed out the discussion on this Forum to the RYA and as an RYA member asked the RYA to respond to the following questions.


Q1. Under French regulations do British Flagged boats need to carry the original boat registration documents?

Q2. If the answer is yes under what regulation please and what is the range of fine?

Q3. Are you aware of any fines being levied on British boats by the French Authorities?


I have now received a detailed response that the RYA got by employing a French Lawyer. As it was RYA members money that employed the lawyer they ask that it is not posted on a public forum but in response to my further request they agreed I could publish the following guidance:-

“Strictly speaking, therefore, a British vessel navigating outside UK territorial waters need not be registered but it must be in a position to produce proof of its nationality. In French territorial waters, the vessel must carry on board original documentation that proves its nationality. For all practical purposes, the simplest and most effective way of proving nationality is by producing the original Certificate of British Registry”

together with a link to the full explanation on the RYA web-site on a page which can be accessed by RYA members only at: http://www.rya.org.uk/infoadvice/boatingabroad/countries/Pages/francereg.aspx


The detailed response basically confirms various points in Sybarites , Tranona & Michael Chapmans posts that the French expect to see original registration papers from their own citizens and also expect it from other countries which for ther UK is an SSR or Part 1 documentation. I believe the French are reasonable and may accept other documentation but at their own descretion.

The RYA are aware of boats being fined.

I always followed the RYA advice as I understood it but never looked up their original website text. I would be interested if another RYA member that has could now do so again and let us know if any of the advice wording has now been slightly modified /expanded in response to the French lawyers answers that gave chapter and verse.

Many knock the RYA but frankly IMHO the perform far better and more efficiently than many UK government organisations and I sincerely hope our government continue to allow them to be the unofficial body for lesuire sailors as I for one would hate to see the DLVA or similar operating ICC, DS, YM qualifications etc

For those that want to challenge the RYA advice I suggest you do it directly with the French authorities

Note to myself - Off skiing next week so must carry car reg docs- it would be stupid of me to ignore the good advice I have learnt from this discussion but pleased its never previously been a problem for me.

 

[snowleopard]

It's clear then that the anti faction have some truth in their assertions. It is not strictly necessary to produce the registration certificate. On the other hand it is not sufficient to prove the owner is a British national or resident. It must be proof that the vessel is registered as British.

I suppose if you are being pedantic it would probably be sufficient to have a certificate from a notary that he has seen the registration document.

 

[Sans Bateau]

I suppose if you are being pedantic it would probably be sufficient to have a certificate from a notary that he has seen the registration document.

Would it not be sufficient and simpler to just carry the original document? Its making hard work of a simple solution.

 

[Lucky Duck]

Would it not be sufficient and simpler to just carry the original document? Its making hard work of a simple solution.

IIRC there were reports on here of charter boats only carrying photocopies of the registration certificates and fines being issued on the basis that originals documents were not available for inspection. If I understand the RYA's summary correctly then the basis of these fines is somewhat suspect.

 

[snowleopard]

IIRC there were reports on here of charter boats only carrying photocopies of the registration certificates and fines being issued on the basis that originals documents were not available for inspection. If I understand the RYA's summary correctly then the basis of these fines is somewhat suspect.

It's pretty routine to require originals of any document as it's too easy to fake copies.

What it comes down to is that it is theoretically possible to provide an alternative to the registration document as proof of flag nationality but it would be a lot more difficult than the certificate and there would still be difficulties over getting the man on the spot to accept them.

ergo for all practical purposes you must carry the original registration document.

 

[Lucky Duck]

It's pretty routine to require originals of any document as it's too easy to fake copies.

What it comes down to is that it is theoretically possible to provide an alternative to the registration document as proof of flag nationality but it would be a lot more difficult than the certificate and there would still be difficulties over getting the man on the spot to accept them.

ergo for all practical purposes you must carry the original registration document.

Unless UK certificates of registry have changed in the last year or so I suspect if I put mine under the work photocopier and laminated the result it would be identical to the original.

Taking the charter boat example it will (presumably) have a UK call sign and MMSI number along with numerous other clues to it's nationality so making the possibility that it was trying to falsely claim UK registration rather remote.

However, a couple of years back I abandoned a proposed foreign trip as I'd left the ship's papers at home and based on my understanding of these threads I would still not take the risk of travelling without them.

 

[DownWest]

A footnote on originals. The DVLA does not accept notarised copies. Asked me to put my Passeport or Birth Cert in THE POST. Cardiff, here I come.
Also local certified translator said they have to be very careful as lots of 'bent' docs coming out of E. Europe.

While I can understand the 'which law? brigade, for £25 I would not even think of having an argument with the customs or 'flics' with the potential to foul up a holiday.
A
So far,I have managed to talk myself out of 4 or 5 situations where I should have been fined, be nice and don't argue. " Don't you obey Stop signs in the UK?" " Well, most of the time, but I'm lost and there wasn't any traffic" Worked, and I got the directions!

 

[Tranona]

“Strictly speaking, therefore, a British vessel navigating outside UK territorial waters need not be registered but it must be in a position to produce proof of its nationality. In French territorial waters, the vessel must carry on board original documentation that proves its nationality. For all practical purposes, the simplest and most effective way of proving nationality is by producing the original Certificate of British Registry”


The detailed response basically confirms various points in Sybarites , Tranona & Michael Chapmans posts that the French expect to see original registration papers from their own citizens and also expect it from other countries which for ther UK is an SSR or Part 1 documentation. I believe the French are reasonable and may accept other documentation but at their own descretion.

The RYA are aware of boats being fined.

Good that RYA took you seriously and thanks to you for asking them. Just a pity Toad didn't do it years ago when he first started this chase, or take up the personal invitation from the RYA to discuss his concerns.!

This explanation is entirely consistent with the decision by the UK government (at the request of the French) to introduce the SSR in 1982. This was brought about by the UN convention clarifying the need to have proof of nationality and the French concern about many British yachts not having any proof.

Simple, pragmatic solution - the SSR.

 

[alant]

A footnote on originals. The DVLA does not accept notarised copies. Asked me to put my Passeport or Birth Cert in THE POST. Cardiff, here I come.
Also local certified translator said they have to be very careful as lots of 'bent' docs coming out of E. Europe.

While I can understand the 'which law? brigade, for £25 I would not even think of having an argument with the customs or 'flics' with the potential to foul up a holiday.
A
So far,I have managed to talk myself out of 4 or 5 situations where I should have been fined, be nice and don't argue. " Don't you obey Stop signs in the UK?" " Well, most of the time, but I'm lost and there wasn't any traffic" Worked, and I got the directions!

Wasting your time in cardiff, DVLA is in Morriston, Swansea, just to be pedantic!

 

[bbg]

It's clear then that the anti faction have some truth in their assertions. It is not strictly necessary to produce the registration certificate.

Without seeing the entire opinion it is impossible to say whether your statement is correct or not. If the analysis was limited to English law, it is defective. The only way to know whether British registration documents are necessary in any particular country is to look at THAT country's laws.
Although the RYA certainly has a role in providing advice to its members, in the event of any inconsistency I would tend to rely on what the national authorities themselves say.

 

[maxi77]

Taking the charter boat example it will (presumably) have a UK call sign and MMSI number along with numerous other clues to it's nationality so making the possibility that it was trying to falsely claim UK registration rather remote.

Almost any numptie can get a UK callsign and MMSI number online so not that good a proof of nationality really.

Clues to nationality do not usually provide absolute proof that bureaucrats like so why not take the easy route and have the correct documetation.

Having had a Froggy document check after a boarding I can assure you with the correct papers the whole thing was a hassle free experience and we even joked with the duaniers.

 

[timbartlett]

I have now received a detailed response that the RYA got by employing a French Lawyer. As it was RYA members money that employed the lawyer they ask that it is not posted on a public forum but in response to my further request they agreed I could publish the following guidance:-

“Strictly speaking, therefore, a British vessel navigating outside UK territorial waters need not be registered but it must be in a position to produce proof of its nationality. In French territorial waters, the vessel must carry on board original documentation that proves its nationality.

Seems to have settled it. A French lawyer has confirmed that registration documents are not compulsory, so long as nationality can be proved by other means.

It goes almost without saying (as it always has) that if you have the original registration document, this is the easiest solution.

 

[timbartlett]

Almost any numptie can get a UK callsign and MMSI number online so not that good a proof of nationality really.

Almost any numptie can get an SSR certificate online, too!

 

[al.carpenter]

Tim

I know this was not a competition but I cannot help to congratulate you and Toad on having been right all this while... and for your tenacity and patience in making your point. I will hammer the nail down further by remembering that fining a british yacht for not producing a SSR doc was not LEGAL... Regards, Al

 

[bbg]

Seems to have settled it. A French lawyer has confirmed that registration documents are not compulsory, so long as nationality can be proved by other means.

It was settled by the douaniers' instructions who said that they are entitled to fine yachts that don't carry a certificate of nationality. But I suppose that is inconvenient for you to remember.

The OP says "Strictly speaking, therefore, a British vessel navigating outside UK territorial waters need not be registered but it must be in a position to produce proof of its nationality." That is for operation outside British waters i.e. mid-Atlantic. A blanket statement like this cannot apply to the territorial waters of any particular country, because the rules in the territorial waters of another country will be governed by that country's laws.

I notice you also conveniently ignored "The RYA are aware of boats being fined." Which is consistent with the douaniers' statement that they are entitled to fine yachts for non-production of a certificate of nationality.

But, if you are so convinced you are right, by all means stand by your principles and travel to France in your unregistered boat and demand an inspection by the douaniers, then wave the RYA opinion in their face when they try to fine you. Unless you are prepared to do that you really all talk and no action.

 

[Lucky Duck]

The OP says "Strictly speaking, therefore, a British vessel navigating outside UK territorial waters need not be registered but it must be in a position to produce proof of its nationality." That is for operation outside British waters i.e. mid-Atlantic. A blanket statement like this cannot apply to the territorial waters of any particular country, because the rules in the territorial waters of another country will be governed by that country's laws.

The question asked of the RYA related to French waters so I am left wondering why the RYA would spend thier members' money asking for a French legal opinion on the situation in the mid-Altlanic. It has been a while since I was a memeber of the RYA so perhaps this point is cleared up in the more detailed notes.

"The RYA are aware of boats being fined." Which is consistent with the douaniers' statement that they are entitled to fine yachts for non-production of a certificate of nationality.

The RYA are also aware that the Dutch customs thought they were entitled to levy substantial fines on British yachts carrying red diesel in thier tanks.

by all means stand by your principles and travel to France in your unregistered boat and demand an inspection by the douaniers, then wave the RYA opinion in their face when they try to fine you.

I am not aware of anybody suggesting that boats should forego registration but there plenty of 'innocent' reasons why the documents might not be available at the time of inspection and if French customs are mistakenly exceeding thier powers in levying fines then surely it is best to know?

 

[snowleopard]

Having established that it is theoretically possible to satisfy French requirements for proof of flag nationality, the pedants really should be telling us what alternative document they would accept. By that I do not mean 'what we think they ought to be satisfied with'.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Without seeing the entire opinion it is impossible to say whether your statement is correct or not.

I agree the original post leaves a lot to be desired:

1. What is the information that the RYA only wish to show paying members? If it's not important then what's the harm in posting the detail for all to see? If it is important then clearly we need to to find out what it is.

2. Boats have been prosecuted? Let's have some detail. If the RYA had real world examples why did they need to waste members money consulting a lawyer? All they'd have to do is state the court cases or (if an on the spot alternative was offered) note down the offence on the receipt.

3. The source. Sailfree has claimed that the original registration document fixed penalty legislation features in the Bloc Marine and that he knew for a fact that at least one prosecution had occurred.
Now he says the RYA have told him there's no such legislation. My gut feeling is he made up his Bloc Marine source and is telling the truth about his RYA source but it could easily be the other way round.

One thing we can be sure of. Nobody has yet posted any legislation stating details of an offence committed when someone loses their original registration docs in France.[1] Nobody has identified a single verifiable instance of boat that has been prosecuted for this. British boats go back and forth to France all the time. I take the view that if the SSR myth were true someone would have posted some verifiable details. I respect people who draw other conclusions.




As the SSR myth is in it's death throes I'll change the subject a bit. We're told the RYA debunk the SSR myth but instead say this:

"In French territorial waters, the vessel must carry on board original documentation that proves its nationality."

Seems plausible, but begs questions an RYA member can answer from the full info.

1) Does "must" mean "legally required under French law with a fine if you can't"?
2) Does "must" mean, required under international law, but not specifically under French Law?
3) Does "must" mean "Not legally required but you're far better off if you do."
4) If 1 or 2, exactly which laws apply?

[1] These are clearly nothing to do with registration.

 

[Lucky Duck]

Having established that it is theoretically possible to satisfy French requirements for proof of flag nationality, the pedants really should be telling us what alternative document they would accept. By that I do not mean 'what we think they ought to be satisfied with'.

Fair point, nobody has admitted to having sucessfuly offering alternative documents to their registration certificate.

However to take a hypothetical example - a hapless sailor is boarded just before he is about to cast off from Cherboug or Calais. To his or her horror the registration expired the day before due to an extended stay owing to poor weather (the replacement is sitting on the doormat at home). The boat carries a UK VHF ship's registration & operators license, a VAT invoice for the boat from the UK importer to the current owner (a UK passport holder), a MOD permit for a blue defaced ensign of a UK yacht club, an insurance certificate with a UK address and mooring and a recipt for red diesel purchased in the UK.

Depending on your point of view, an on the spot fine is perfectly justified or not?

 

[macd]

...That is for operation outside British waters i.e. mid-Atlantic. A blanket statement like this cannot apply to the territorial waters of any particular country, because the rules in the territorial waters of another country will be governed by that country's laws.

I notice you also conveniently ignored "The RYA are aware of boats being fined." Which is consistent with the douaniers' statement that they are entitled to fine yachts for non-production of a certificate of nationality.

The first, if you'll forgive me, is a misrepresentation. Perhaps you meant "e.g." rather than "i.e."?

As to the second, it is equally consistent with the douaniers excercising power they don't have.