French Boating Industry.

[Sybarite]

In another thread it was implied that the success of the French boating industry is due to subsidies.

Not true. Someday will somebody please explain what these subsidies are supposed to consist of? I can think of tax incentives with respect to the tourist development of the French overseas territories and departments of which boating was only one of the industries to benefit from them. But then the UK also has regional development policies and, in addition had, until about 10 years ago zero-rated offshore companies (which the French didn't) used by many of the larger boats

Rather the French builders cater for what sailors really want and not what they think sailors should have. I used to laugh at the continual criticisms in English yachting magazines that such and such a boat didn't have lee cloths or that another had too many berths...

The development in France was driven by the charter market where most people are day sailors - groups of students or company works committees who want to get into the local bistro in the evening. They don't give a fiddlers about long term creature comforts. Even crossing to SW England or Corsica is only an overnight hop and normally no great shakes. It would be interesting to do a survey of how many overnight passages you would do in an average season or in a boat's lifetime.

This approach - following the sudden popularity of sailing after Eric Tabarly's well-publicized transat win in 1968 - enabled the French builders to have bigger production runs enabling them to bring unit costs down which in turn enabled them to sell even more enabling them to build more modern plants etc etc. Building efficiently on volumes in the '000's does not necessarily mean poor quality. You don't continually increase your market share with bad quality. Enough BenJeans have crossed oceans now to have proved the concept. My criticism of them is not one of quality but rather of the banality of boat designs today.

They have also benefitted or more correctly the British have been handicapped by a pound that suddenly became 20% more expensive for buyers than euro-denominated French or German boats. It's no accident that while the UK car industry is going from crisis to crisis the French are adding additional work shifts: nights and week-ends, and the shipyards have full order books for many years to come. They can also plan with currency stability over a 300 million population market rather than a 60 miilion UK market. You may have guessed that I'm an advocate of Britain adopting the euro! ( The banks and the City are against it BECAUSE they make more money from arbitraging currencies at the expense of the likes of you and me who know less about it than them ! )

Sure I would like a British or a Scandinavian boat if I had the means. Would I be willing to pay 25% - 50% - 100% more than a boat that is almost as good ? - not so sure.

Joyeux Noël - I'm off.

 

[charles_reed]

The decision to support Benéteau as the "champion of the French boatbuilding industry" was taken in 1979 by the Government.

Nearly all the subsidies, entirely allowable under EU rules, were for job-creation or job-preservation in Class 4 areas, this was especially true of the sweetening of the Jeanneau takeover.

What is illustrated here is the imagination of the French civil service in using (sometimes abusing) the EC Social Fund, in direct contrast to our un-inspired lot who always try and "improve" the directives so that there are absolutely no loopholes.

Having said that I find the rest of your comments unexceptionable except, possibly, the contention that the boats were designed for the charter market.

Rather they were designed for the recreational boater who wanted to have social weekends on an easy to sail boat with lots of friends and acquaintances.

It is no wonder that France is now the second largest (after the USA) leisure-boating market in the world.

Nearly 4 times as many marina berths than the UK with 2000-3000 being added each year (2002 figure). Berthing fees in the marina < 20% of the UK South Coast, all the marinas owned by the local authority and seen as part of the leisure infrastructure and as bringing valuable trade into the local community.

2nd hand boat prices about 70% of the UK, far more comprehensive (IMHO) buoyage, far greater commercial sponsorship of the sport, singlehanders not considered criminals but rather as heros and x4 the coverage of the sport in local and national press.

Downsides (some might consider), compulsory licensing for all skippers, dedicated maritime police (who quite frequently haul PWC users into detention), tax on diesel fuel at the road-rate, no RYA, no RNLI (instead a state-funded system who will charge you for towing your boat in or for fatuous calls).

Compare this with the UK, where the sport is seen as the prerogative of the idle rich; the so-called representative body is packed by establishment placemen more interested in the politics than the good of the industry and boatbuilders are seen as an unneccessary "luxury" industry.

The UK has indulged in passive discouragement of the industry/sport whilst France has actively and consistently encouraged it.

 

[ccscott49]

I agree with you, the british have always seen yachting as the pastime of the idle rich, because it was to a large extent and the myth is still being carried on by the exclusive royal yacht clubs, exclusive non-royal yacht clubs, ex. admiral types in our organisations etc, with the usual pomp!! We of the real sailing community are forgotten by all, but the people wanting to put their hands even deeper into our pockets, it has to stop, but how? The boating industry (boatbuilding etc) is dying in fact for the most part dead, only the super yacht manufacturers are doing anything and they are seen as exclusive expensive toys. But to be fair in this country we have to be reasonably well off to own a yacht, in most cases on the south coast anyway, due to the costs imposed on us. I see in the future a complete collapse of the boating industry and collapse of the support industry marinas etc. It can't come fast enough for me, then we may be able to set up a french system!

 

[billmacfarlane]

Banality ? The French , Jeanneau , made the first boat with an aft cabin , Beneteau have tried boats with interior designs by Philipe Starke , and have produced boats with some striking interiors. That's more like innovation to me. If you look at some of the Swedish designs , HR etc , they might have handsome , well made interiors , but they're all much of a conservative muchness and to my mind fairly banal. Long may the French , and we've not had one for a while , come up with an innovative interior design that challenges us to look again at what we think a boat's interior should look like.
On a totally different tack , if we had the same marina system and comparative value for money as the French , would we still have a boat making industry ?

 

[pandroid]

I think susbsidies have something to do with it, but the rest is investment. Otherwise how come that the UK Motor Boat Industry is a leader when the yacht side (except possibly Oyster) is dying?

 

[Guest]

The French boating industry has very definitely been supported by the French government and people, as every industry is in France. In the case of boating, indirect subsidies were given as part of the development of the french overseas teritories in a way which is totally different to any regional support in the uk (of which there is very little anyway). In addition, the French government indirectly controlles the banks, thus ensuring finance is easily available to the nominated "National Champions" even when it is not really justified - hence the parlous state of Credit Lyonnaise for one. And they also have bankrupcy laws ( like the us chapter 11) which sacrifice the creditor in the interest of keeping the business going, relevant in this case in view of the problems that the major boatbuilders have had from time to time.

Most important of all, however, is the French government and peoples willingness to fight for French owned industry. Look through a French dept store, and you will find very few non French products, by contrast with a British one where you will find very little made in the UK. However , the British store will not be full of French goods because they are too expensive - they will be full of Chinese goods which are cheap. We dont care (or often know) where our purchases come from - the French do.

We are the odd one out. This type of self support is common elsewhere. Who but Italians would buy mainly Fiat cars, whilst the French buy mainly French and the Germans buy German. All three cannot be buying the best! They are helping themselves.

Here, we denigrate our industry, regard things foreign as automatically better and have an apalling balance of payments problem as a result.

How long before we have a run on the pound and the Chancellor borrowing money from the IMF? Buy your foreign boat now, whilst you can.

 

[poter]

I agree with all that has been said above.
However there is another point, French Managers have a lot more business acumen and are forward thinking.
How many British business leaders can you think of, that have that ability?

Most of our business leaders get a great deal of dosh by ruining the company, is it some sort of conspiracy?


Poter.

 

[chippie]

I understand your point of view ,but how does anybody make money by ruining the company?

 

[Guest]

business managers are in it for their own benefit - fair enough, we all do a bit of that. the problem is with the rules within which they try to achieve their objective. if you get rich by stripping out assets, firing uk labour and selling off the rump of the business to a foreigner, then thats what you do. thats the rule in the uk. elsewhere in europe, rewards come from achieving long term growth and not at the expense of the employees or the country.

you cant blame british managers for the rules they play under!

incidentally, in many of the few remaining significant british companies, the managers arent british. vodaphone is the latest example. seems we even want to import the managers.

 

[Bergman]

The former CEO of BT managed to reduce the share price from £15 to less than £2

He left the company with several million pounds and a 6 figure pa pension.

The directors of Barings saw a loss of close on 1 Billion pounds and the sale of the oldest Merchant bank for £1 and then drew 6 figure bonus.

Thats before we mention Enron

Want any more examples? there are scores.

 

[Cornishman]

I got it wrong again...I thought that Enron was an American company.

I hate to be the wotsit in this particular woodpile, but has anybody been to Plymouth recently and seen the new factory buildings housing Princess Yachts, formerly Marine Projects? They seem to be doing OK building Moody yachts and Princess motor cruisers etc

And what's all this about euros and European cars. Germany is in one hell of a state, Fiat is just about bust and the French car industry teeters on the brink, or am I reading the wrong business papers? Skoda - now there's a success story for you

 

[Guest]

yes fiat totters, and renault struggles, but they still exist. they will continue to do so. can you ever imagine the french or italian govt allowing them to fade away like rover, austin, morris, rootes ?.

barings was one rogue employee and the same thing has happened in the us, in japan and in switzerland. bt has fared better than french telecom but has been forced to sell off cellnet. electricity de france is still state controlled yet has been allowed to buy up large parts of the uk industry (which is not allowed to buy in france) and then use the interconnector to import french power. and the water industry. and now the french are likely to build our two new aircraft carriers - their govt must think we're idiots.

when will we learn that business, at the national level, is war by another name?

ps I'm not anti French. I admire their determination to win.

 

[nicho]

My old 'mob', General Motors have already bought 20% of Fiat (which is rapidly going down the tubes). Once the company is totally on it's knees, GM will come in and pick up the crumbs for a song. Similarly, GM waited for Daewoo to go bust before buying them for a nominal amount - Daewoo is now run in Korea by my old boss Nick Reilly (until last year, the Chairman of Vauxhall), with Daewoo UK being administered by my old colleagues in Vauxhall's Head Office at Luton!! We did the same with Saab, which is now owned by GM, and administered by GM people. I could go on as this is just the tip of the iceberg - but where will it all end?? It is MUCH easier for major conglomerates to close UK plants (eg Luton car plant) than those in Germany, Belgium, France etc. Our Government rolls over and lets it happen, whereas other European Governments will simply not have it.

Skoda is now a fine company with very acceptable products, but only since it was taken over by VW - Skoda itself would also have disappeared without the VW bail out.

 

[halcyon]

Had one of the new RORO navy fast responce in Falmouth last week, 2 were made in Belfast, the other 4 in German yard, and silly me thought our ship building needed all the work they could get.
Odd these days that trade figures are back page, gather October were record deficit, yet hardly a word, before that would have been banner headlines everywere.
Have heard a rumour that the sinking in the channel was part of a government plan to reduce inports, particularly high cost cars.

Brian

 

[poter]

I am afraid that I have to agree.
We were a country of inovators, even that flair seems to have now gone.


poter

 

[halcyon]

In the past anyone who built a successful firm and made a good profit was shot down, so why not get rich selling it off, less work and just as much bad press.
Win a tennis match and earn £1,000,000 and your a good guy, employ 10,000 people and earn £1,000,000 and your a money grabber.

Brian

 

[chippie]

I take your point , but they were rewarded by having generous contracts that rewarded them in spite of , not for, ruining the company.

Seasons Greetings