French boat, VAT proof

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anonymous249243

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Hi guys,

I want to buy a French sailing boat (2013) with the following history:
- Sold new, with original invoice, to a French lease company (on request of the 1st owner)
- The French lease company gave me a VAT declaration, stating they paid the 20% VAT (TVA)
- The French registration had the Lease company name
- After the lease contract ended in 2018, the boat was registered on the customer's name
- I have the French registration that it is on the owners name

The seller says the VAT is paid in France.
The Dutch douane don't believe the VAT is paid...
They want to see the lease contract, which is hard to find.

What can I do? Is there a TVA / VAT certificate the French Douane can give me, to proof the VAT paid status?
The Dutch douane also dismiss the French Cancellation of Flag procedure, stating it's not proof of VAT paid.

Kind regards
 
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Welcome.

Not sure anybody here can help you. It is up to the customs in each state to resolve the issue. Not sure why the Dutch customs are interested as you are buying a boat in France which by definition has free circulation in the EU and any outstanding VAT matters are the responsibility of French authorities. Normally French registration is confirmation that VAT has been paid.

Perhaps you should take it up with the seller or his broker and ask them for proof of VAT payment.
 
When I bought a boat from France I asked that the douanes annotate the radiation du pavillon français form with "TVA payé" which they were happy to do (the broker arranged this). I had the original lease document but thought that the extra belt and braces wouldn't do any harm.
 
The Dutch Douane told me (last week) there was a law suit - Dutch vs France - that the French gov. cant stamp VAT paid on the “cancellation of flag” papers (radiation du pavillon) any more.

So I’m looking for something that can proof the VAT status? Maybe a certificate that the French Douane can give me?

If you have an EU pasport, and you sail in a EU country… that country can board your boat and ask to see al papers. So the Dutch Douane will definitely fine me… even if I use the French flag.
 
anonymous249243 said:
Hi guys,

I want to buy a French sailing boat (2013) with the following history:
- Sold new, with original invoice, to a French lease company (on request of the 1st owner)
- The French lease company gave me a VAT declaration, stating they paid the 20% VAT (TVA)
- The French owner / registration was on the lease contract
- After the lease contract ended in 2018, the boat was registered on the customer's name
- I have the French registration that it is on the owners name

The seller says the VAT is paid in France.
The Dutch douane don't believe the VAT is paid...
They want to see the lease contract, which is hard to find.

What can I do? Is there a TVA / VAT certificate the French Douane can give me, to proof the VAT paid status?
The Dutch douane also dismiss the French Cancellation of Flag procedure, stating it's not proof of VAT paid.

Kind regards
Click to expand...
Im going back 20 years now, but I was led to believe at the time that for ownership via a lease company, the whole point was not to pay the TVA, so I can't see why it should be deemed TVA paid now......as I say, though, this is going back a while.
 
Clancy Moped said:
Im going back 20 years now, but I was led to believe at the time that for ownership via a lease company, the whole point was not to pay the TVA, so I can't see why it should be deemed TVA paid now......as I say, though, this is going back a while.
Click to expand...
The 60 periods (5 yrs) was a 9% vat instead of 20% for the customer. So it was cheaper and legit VAT paid status.
And the customer didnt have to 400k upfront, “just” a monthly payment
 
anonymous249243 said:
Hi guys,

I want to buy a French sailing boat (2013) with the following history:
- Sold new, with original invoice, to a French lease company (on request of the 1st owner)
- The French lease company gave me a VAT declaration, stating they paid the 20% VAT (TVA)
- The French registration had the Lease company name
- After the lease contract ended in 2018, the boat was registered on the customer's name
- I have the French registration that it is on the owners name

The seller says the VAT is paid in France.
The Dutch douane don't believe the VAT is paid...
They want to see the lease contract, which is hard to find.

What can I do? Is there a TVA / VAT certificate the French Douane can give me, to proof the VAT paid status?
The Dutch douane also dismiss the French Cancellation of Flag procedure, stating it's not proof of VAT paid.

Kind regards
Click to expand...
Surely buying second goods in the EU from an EU resident person, there is never any VAT involved.
If there is any VAT issue, then it should not be your problem. Potentially the problem of the previous owner.

In theory - but how best to argue that with the authorities???
 
You may try and ask the French Douanes a copy of the "quitus fiscal", or Affaires Maritimes (see below).
It usually works the other way round, the "quitus fiscal" is delivered by the Douanes to people wishing to register foreign boats under French flag, it's the paper saying "VAT paid"; the "Acte de francisation" is (was, see below) the registration paper and it implied VAT paid status, as one needed the quitus fiscal to get it.
However, from Jan 1st this year all French flag formalities have gone outside the Douanes umbrella and are fully handled by Affaires Maritimes, maybe it's them having the whole paperwork history for the boat, "quitus fiscal" included.
 
Roberto said:
You may try and ask the French Douanes a copy of the "quitus fiscal", or Affaires Maritimes (see below).
It usually works the other way round, the "quitus fiscal" is delivered by the Douanes to people wishing to register foreign boats under French flag, it's the paper saying "VAT paid"; the "Acte de francisation" is (was, see below) the registration paper and it implied VAT paid status, as one needed the quitus fiscal to get it.
However, from Jan 1st this year all French flag formalities have gone outside the Douanes umbrella and are fully handled by Affaires Maritimes, maybe it's them having the whole paperwork history for the boat, "quitus fiscal" included.
Click to expand...
Thank you! I will try to research this tomorrow
 
anonymous249243 said:
Thank you! I will try to research this tomorrow
Click to expand...
It's funny the Dutch authorities are requiring VAT paid status proof, when for years the ICP has served the opposite purpose: people buying boats abroad and registering under ICP, no question answered (but of course it's like registering at an automobile club), then asked the radiation certificate to register under other EU flags where authorities were less keen on checking VAT status, "after all it comes from a EU register" :)
The various NGO ships under ICP involved in migrants aid may have rung a bell.
 
riverteign said:
When I bought a boat from France I asked that the douanes annotate the radiation du pavillon français form with "TVA payé" which they were happy to do (the broker arranged this). I had the original lease document but thought that the extra belt and braces wouldn't do any harm.
Click to expand...

+1 I did exactly the same with my last boat, bought in France. Again, all arranged by the broker.
 
Arcady said:
+1 I did exactly the same with my last boat, bought in France. Again, all arranged by the broker.
Click to expand...
But as I understand the French gov doesnt stamp TVA payé any more on the cancellation of flag. And the Dutch Douane don’t recognize that as VAT paid.

i just hope this is only a Dutch problem? Because then I would just not visit The Netherlands. Any clue if spain, italy, malta, greece, croatia accept my French documents?
 
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Not sure why you are worried about documents when visiting other states in the EU as there are no routine checks. People and their boats have been moving around the EU for years with no need to show VAT proof - including from the UK when we were members and majority of UK boats, particularly older ones have no documentary proof of VAT payment. Of course individual state customs have the right to ask but only do so if they believe an offence has been committed. VAT is the responsibility of the state where it was paid and you will have the paperwork to show that French authorities are happy.
 
Tranona said:
Not sure why you are worried about documents when visiting other states in the EU as there are no routine checks. People and their boats have been moving around the EU for years with no need to show VAT proof - including from the UK when we were members and majority of UK boats, particularly older ones have no documentary proof of VAT payment. Of course individual state customs have the right to ask but only do so if they believe an offence has been committed. VAT is the responsibility of the state where it was paid and you will have the paperwork to show that French authorities are happy.
Click to expand...
What I hear is that Croatia and The Netherlands patrol and board boats all the time? To hopefully find unpaid VAT?
 
anonymous249243 said:
What I hear is that Croatia and The Netherlands patrol and board boats all the time? To hopefully find unpaid VAT?
Click to expand...
Doubt the Dutch will be at all interested in VAT. Much more interested in drug and people smugglers. Croatia is slightly different as they have been very slow to move from the paranoia of being a communist state and may if you intend keeping your boat in their waters want to see a T2L form which is a transport form confirming the goods have free movement. Portugal has been known to ask for this as well.

Honestly, I think you are worrying about nothing. EU VAT paid boats have been moving around the EU for 30 years, and while there are odd reports of difficulties for some it is invariably because there IS an irregularity, usually a boat coming in from outside the EU and not being declared. Random checks on VAT paperwork are almost unheard of simply because customs have far more important things to worry about and there is no mechanism for charging VAT on an existing boat unless a "chargeable event" (of which importing from outside the EU is the most common, has occurred. Taking a boat bought in France to the Netherlands is not a chargeable event. Only thing they will be interested in is your registration document.
 
anonymous249243 said:
Hi guys,

I want to buy a French sailing boat (2013) with the following history:
- Sold new, with original invoice, to a French lease company (on request of the 1st owner)
- The French lease company gave me a VAT declaration, stating they paid the 20% VAT (TVA)
- The French registration had the Lease company name
- After the lease contract ended in 2018, the boat was registered on the customer's name
- I have the French registration that it is on the owners name

The seller says the VAT is paid in France.
The Dutch douane don't believe the VAT is paid...
They want to see the lease contract, which is hard to find.

What can I do? Is there a TVA / VAT certificate the French Douane can give me, to proof the VAT paid status?
The Dutch douane also dismiss the French Cancellation of Flag procedure, stating it's not proof of VAT paid.

Kind regards
Click to expand...
Hello, could you please share any update on how this was resolved? I am also currently trying to understand if an Acte de Francisation is enough proof of VAT paid
 
I walked away from the boat, because the company in cherbourg was terrible in fixing the boat up… got a lot of lies and an unfinished boat.

What you need to do is collect all your invoices with VAT, and do the total sum.. if enough VAT has been paid.
 
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