Fraud or not?

[Deleted member 478]

I bought my new anchor through WestMarine and they debited my bank account with two different amounts for the same order. Is this fraud?

See correspondence (Sorry, it's in newest at the top format, so read from the bottom):

Susan, debiting my bank account TWICE for something that I have only ordered once is considered fraud in most countries. Further to this, because of WestMarine's additional debit, I went into overdraft which has cost me money and will do for another five days when your automated system cancels the illegal "authorization code". Looking at it another way, I am providing WestMarine with a free loan facility for five days, without my consent.

If WestMarine does not compensate me for this unnecessary cost, I will put in a formal complaint against WestMarine with my credit card company.

I am very angry about this.

John Perry
From: Susan ****Giner [mailto:****@westmarine.com]
Sent: 05 May 2011 01:10 PM
To: [removed]
Subject: RE: Susan Giner West Marine

Thank you, yes this is the correct authorization code. Your order will be shipping today. You will receive an automated confirmation and the Federal Express tracking number once the order has shipped.

The authorization code you gave me was for the full amount of the order. Item 8232035 was in stock in an alternate warehouse. Our system placed a new order and took a second approval. I have placed one order only and will use the original approval code. You will only be charged $648.94 once the tax was taken off. The second approval code will drop off after approximately 5 business days.

Best regards, Susan Giner

From: John Perry
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2011 4:14 AM
To: Susan Giner
Subject: RE: Susan Giner West Marine

Hi Susan

I have phoned Barclays in the UK and they tell me that TWO amounts have been deducted from my account by WestMarine. I assume that the first deduction is the correct one if I take the exchange rate into consideration. The authorisation code for that transaction is *******

The second amount is for approximately US$ 598.00 which is very close to the price of the Manson Anchor I ordered. How come I have been charged twice for it?

The transaction is not yet showing on my online internet bank statement, but the associate from Barclays told me about it. As soon as it shows (probably tomorrow) I will be able to do a screen dump for you.

My telephone number here is ************ should you need to get hold of me.

Regards

John Perry

From: Susan Giner
Sent: 04 May 2011 05:29 PM
To: John Perry
Subject: RE: Susan Giner West Marine

Thank you for your reply. When I called Barclays Bank again, I was told the previous associate was wrong it helping me verify the billing information. That is against their policy. Could you contact Barclays yourself and see if they will give you the pending authorization code given for the transaction with West Marine. I will consider that address verification. Thank you for your help in this matter.

Best regards, Susan Giner

 

[SimbaDog]

It's probably gods way of telling you that you should have gone for a CQR!

 

[Searush]

I can see why you chose your forum moniker, you do seem to get stung quite often. Work out a sum that you want to cover the costs & hassle & send them a bill requesting payment within 14 days or Small Claims procedures will be started - assuming you are able to start small claims procedure where you are & they are.

 

[prv]

Work out a sum that you want to cover the costs & hassle & send them a bill requesting payment within 14 days or Small Claims procedures will be started - assuming you are able to start small claims procedure where you are & they are.

....which I very much doubt he can, them being in the US and all. Otherwise good advice.

Pete

 

[bbg]

Not fraud. A mistake, perhaps (wait to check your online bank statement) but I have no doubt West Marine will not charge you twice for the anchor. At most it will take some sorting out.

 

[mcframe]

As they *claim* that's it's shipped, I'd be tempted to call the CC company and scream "chargeback" for *both* transactions.

Note however, that it's possible for companies (e.g. car hire, hotels, etc) to /gain approval/ for a transaction, but only /process payment/ (and for the CC company to bill the customer) at a later date.

 

[Rum_Pirate]

I bought my new anchor through WestMarine

Did you try negotiating with Island Waterworld or Budget (they give hefty discounts) before deciding to go direct?

Also they might have got a better freight rate.

 

[Sybaris]

From Susan's answer to you it is clear that they make a credit card authorization transaction first (approval code) and the real sales transaction is made once the item is shipped. This is a reasonable way of doing it. I have worked 20 years with hotel software and this is for example typical for hotel reservations. She also clearly states that only one sales transaction will be made and that the second authorization will laps in 5 days. Standard procedure.

Having said that, with my experience of Barclays it wouldn't surprise me if they dragged those 5 days out even longer. But don't get me started on Barclays because I could write a thread longer than the anchor thread myself then and I don't think many yachties would be interested.

Cheers,
Per

 

[Ubergeekian]

I can see why you chose your forum moniker, you do seem to get stung quite often.

Coming next: Gludy Buys An Anchor.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

Not fraud. A mistake, perhaps (wait to check your online bank statement) but I have no doubt West Marine will not charge you twice for the anchor. At most it will take some sorting out.

Exactly. Why do people go to silly extremes the moment someone else makes a mistake? Or are they , like god and the pope, infallible?

 

[Gordonmc]

Not fraud. A mistake, perhaps (wait to check your online bank statement) but I have no doubt West Marine will not charge you twice for the anchor. At most it will take some sorting out.

That is the natural reaction.
However, when I has two debits on a credit card for a holiday booking I assumed finger problems and contacted the hotel. The agent who sold me the accommodation said they would refer to their accounts department. I went back to them three times over the next month. They were provided with evidence two debits had been made from my bank account.
I started phoning them on a weekly basis and got fed up when I could hear the agent giggling in the background.
I got restitution only after getting Visa involved.
Visa told me it is becoming a common practice for multiple debits on the same transaction. Either the purchaser does not notice the duplication on his account statement or the delay in restitution amounts to an interest free loan to the benefit of the vendor.

 

[Deleted member 478]

From Susan's answer to you it is clear that they make a credit card authorization transaction first (approval code) and the real sales transaction is made once the item is shipped.

So why only one authorisation code and two debits?

 

[Deleted member 478]

Exactly. Why do people go to silly extremes the moment someone else makes a mistake? Or are they , like god and the pope, infallible?

If you re-read her email, she says the second debit is system generated. Therefore , no people, god or popes involved.

The system must have been created to do this, which I find to be very sharp practise. WTF do they think they are, taking an unauthorised loan from me for five days?

 

[Sybaris]

So why only one authorisation code and two debits?

There are two types of card transactions. An authorization transaction, and a sales (debit) transaction. The authorization code is used in cases where the purchase order is done before the actual sale (hotel bookings for example) as opposed to an immediate sale in a shop or fuel station for example.

West Marine has chosen to make an authorization when you place the order. What happens then is that the money has not actually been taken off your account yet so you are still getting interest on your money and they don't have the money. Your card limit is however adjusted so that you can't spend that amount on other things for a limited time period - in this case seemingly 5 days.

The card company issues a unique authorization number for these transactions so that when the item is later on shipped all the vendor has to do is to send a request to the card company to activate the sales (debit) transaction for such and such authorization number. It is also possible for the vendor to request the cancellation of an authorization number (hotel cancellation for example) in which case the amount is again returned to your credit card limit.

The alternative is that the mail order company debits your card immediately and ships later. This seems to be the norm but personally I prefer the West Marine way of not actually activating the sales (debit) transaction until the item is actually shipped.

I totally agree that credit card systems are sometimes open to possible fraud and misuse (although the safety has improved the last few years radically), but in this case I don't think West Marine has done anything critically wrong. They certainly haven't taken the amount from your account.

It is possible that there were two authorization transactions made, the first one possibly for the wrong amount and the second one for the correct amount. My guess is that their computer system does not allow the editing of an existing authorization code so instead they just issue a new one. As I say this is not critical but it is a stupid mistake in their credit card interface software (or possibly a limitation in the credit card vendor they use). I have seen much worse systems than that, believe me.

I would also like to point out that Susan actually called your Barclays contact to try to sort it out which I think is rare.

Per

 

[neale]

There is some mixed messages here.

If it was on a credit card, how do you go overdrawn?

If you mean over your credit limit then the credit card company should be able to deal with that as it was a mistake not of your doing.

A debit and a pre-authorisation are two different things. You could quite easily have had 2 pre authorisations, which will allocate those funds and stop you using that amount of your credit limit anywhere else, but may only get one actual debit on your account.

Have you actually seen a statement with two debits?

 

[neale]

Beaten to it by Sybaris

The more I read into this the more I am convinced that you have 2 pre-auths and will only get one debit.

The problem may be that your Barclays contact has used the wrong words when speaking to you.

What is actually showing on your online statement as of today?

 

[Deleted member 478]

If it was on a credit card, how do you go overdrawn?

Sorry, it is a debit card.

The problem may be that your Barclays contact has used the wrong words when speaking to you.

That now makes sense.

What is actually showing on your online statement as of today?

Except for the reduced balance available, still nothing, so I suspect I need to stand, hat in hand and admit that I know sweet feck all about how these things work.

 

[SimbaDog]

PM me all your card details, I have a friend in Nigeria who can sort it out

 

[emsworthy]

Many moons ago I worked for large well known department store and in the heyday when oriental carpets were on everyone's wish list we did a "roadshow" to an outlying town.

These rugs were retailing at up to £2k a pop eek: this was 20 years ago) and because we didn't have access to the store's automated till system we resorted to telephoning the credit card company to pre-authorise the amounts before releasing the goods and then simply taking a carbon impression of the customers card. (This did not however constitute a transaction)

All went well until we returned to the store the next day and processed the entire day's takings through the till system which promptly made another pre-authorisation and processed the transaction. Without exception they all went through a second time and we were only made aware of our mistake by a very pissed off customer calling from Heathrow informing us that we had wiped out his £8k credit limit on his one and only credit card and BA wouldn't let him pay for his ticket to New York with it!... He missed his flight and board meeting

I can therefore totally understand why Stingo is equally miffed but hopefully reassure him he is very unlikely to be charged twice.

 

[Ubergeekian]

Visa told me it is becoming a common practice for multiple debits on the same transaction. Either the purchaser does not notice the duplication on his account statement or the delay in restitution amounts to an interest free loan to the benefit of the vendor.

Years ago I bought a jacket from a shop on the Royal Mile in Edinburgh. The assistant claimed to be very surprised when I pointed out that he had placed two credit card payment vouchers (remember them?) in the machine, swiped them and presented them to me for payment.